Fear of the unfamiliar is a powerful force. 

And when it comes to autism, we don’t only have a knowledge problem, we have a courage problem. 

We’ve all seen or experienced the harm that comes with labels, bullying, and social exclusion. 

But reflexively protecting ourselves keeps us locked in a cycle of ignoring the need for real education beyond tropes or inspiration porn and keeps us from normalizing the varied needs and supports for autistics instead of perpetuating these supports as burdens or flaws.

So, how can we, as leaders, challenge ourselves to create a world where everyone is welcome—even those who don’t fit the mold? 

We invite autistic voices to the table and platform them in the spaces we live, work, and lead. And we face our fears and discomforts, without getting bogged down with perfectionism and focusing on simply doing the next right thing.

When our director of Health and Human Services is using his position to spread narratives about autistic people that are not only inaccurate, but dangerous, we have to embrace and speak up for inclusion. Inclusion isn’t always easy or efficient, but it makes us more prosperous as a community, and courage grows becomes a contagion.

Today’s conversation will help you consider how we can move past toxic, dehumanizing views about autistic people and start leading with more compassion and understanding.

Eric Garcia is the senior Washington correspondent for The Independent who authors its Inside Washington newsletter. He is also a columnist for MSNBC and the author of We’re Not Broken: Changing the Autism Conversation. He previously worked at The Washington Post, The Hill, Roll Call, National Journal, and MarketWatch.

Meg Raby is an autistic female, children’s author of the My Brother Otto series, Speech Language Pathologist, writer for Scary Mommy and full time employee of the nation’s leading nonprofit in sensory inclusion, KultureCity. At any given moment, Meg is thinking about how to better love on the humans around her and how to create positive change without causing division.

Content note: Brief, non-descriptive mentions of suicide

 

 

Listen to the full episode to hear:

• How the anti-vaccine narrative around autism pulls resources from the actual work of improving outcomes for autistic people
• How our relational history can intersect with shame and perfectionism to make us fear a neurodivergent diagnosis
• How a deficits-based approach limits our ability to envision what a happy, fulfilling life looks like for autistic people
• How validating what’s often underneath fears about autism can more effectively start conversations that change minds
• Why making spaces neurodivergent affirming is ongoing work, not a checklist

 

Learn more about Eric Garcia:

• Website
• Twitter: @EricMGarcia
• Instagram: @EricMGarcia14
• We’re Not Broken: Changing the Autism Conversation

 

Learn more about Meg Raby Klinghoffer:

• KultureCity
• Meg’s Work at Scary Mommy
• Instagram: @author.meg.raby
• The My Brother Otto Series

 

Learn more about Rebecca:

• rebeccaching.com
• Work With Rebecca
• The Unburdened Leader on Substack
• Sign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader Email

 

Resources:

• Maintenance Phase: RFK Jr. and The Rise of the Anti-Vaxx Movement
• Maintenance Phase: RFK Jr. and The Mainstreaming Of The Anti-Vaxx Movement
• Scary Mommy: My Aging Parents Shocked Me By Walking Away From Our Relationship

 

Transcript:

Rebecca Ching: All right, y’all. Welcome back to another episode of The Unburdened Leader. We’ve got a little housekeeping for you before we dive into the show. If you are not already subscribed to the show, please subscribe, and if you have listened to a show, I’d be honored if you left a rating and a review and shared this episode, and this show in general, with folks you think may benefit from it. This makes a difference. This really helps get the word out of the show to more people, so thank you for doing it, and I’m gonna be formally launching my Substack soon under my name Rebecca Ching. It’s called Unburdened Leader – keeping it all consistent. But we’re gonna be having deeper conversations around these episodes along with, more real time, touching base on issues that intersect between leadership, mental health, and relationships. So I’d love to see you over there! Okay, now on with the show!

[Inspirational Intro Music]

Rebecca Ching: Fear of the unfamiliar is a powerful force. It’s easier to stay comfortable with old beliefs than to turn towards the messy, necessary work of including and accepting those who are different from us. When it comes to autism, we don’t only have a knowledge problem or an education problem, we have a courage problem. It’s easy to say we’re raising awareness. It’s harder to change the systems, expectations, and deep-seeded burdens we carry around productivity, worthiness, and who belongs.

I’m Rebecca Ching, and you’re listening to The Unburdened Leader, the show that goes deep with humans navigating life’s challenges and leading in their own ways. Our goal is to learn how they address the burdens they carry and how they learn from them and become better and more impactful leaders of themselves and others.

2:111

Let me take you back several years to a meeting I attended at my daughter’s then elementary school. I was invited to help discuss the possibility of the school hosting an autism awareness event. And the meeting comprised of parents, administrators, and teachers, and I shared some ideas hoping to put together an event that would just grow our little school community in the best of ways. But as I finished, a couple of veteran teachers, who are awesome human beings, responded quite stirringly. They almost looked mad at me. [Laughs] And they said, “We can’t do this!” And I’m like, “Okay? Why?” And they said, “Some of the children here have autism, but their parents haven’t told them yet, and we don’t want them to find out here,” and the conversation at that school shut down right there.

And I thought about that moment in that meeting and that conversation a lot, and it stuck with me because it highlighted just how deeply fear and stigma still shape how we talk about autism. And honestly, this fear isn’t just confined to school communities. Now, listen, I get it, and I deeply, deeply respect every family’s decision on how they want to discuss their child’s autism identity. It’s so personal, and I understand the fears and concerns many parents have about their kids being treated negatively because of an autism diagnosis. I know, for me, that was one of the scariest things that I had to reckon with was just the vulnerability I felt in part because of how this world sees different.

My husband and I took a different route, though, and we made the decision early on to talk about our daughter’s autistic identity because it just didn’t feel right to hold something back from her that was so crucial to how she functioned and experienced the world.

4:10

And we wanted her to learn how to advocate for herself and normalize and build understanding around her daily needs as she showed up. We didn’t want her to grow up not understanding why she would respond certain ways in certain situations and understand why some things were more sensitive or a bigger deal to her than others. And I say this just really for us. Keeping it a secret from her felt like we would further stigmatize her autism and the autism of others.

Over the years, I’ve spoken with many parents and clients who were terrified that if their child was diagnosed or labeled as autistic they’d face judgment, bullying, ridicule, or worse, a lack of opportunity. And I think it’s easy to say that’s a flawed argument when it’s not your kid, right? But the reality is we live in a world that is pretty hard on each other, especially on our kids. And so, I think it’s really understandable. We’ve all seen or experienced the harm that comes from labels and bullying and social exclusion. Again, this fear, while valid, it keeps us locked in a cycle of ignoring the need for real education and inclusion of those with autism. Instead of challenging our narrow and harmful definitions of what’s normal, we end up doubling down on avoiding the conversation altogether.

So fast forward to the week of April 22nd, 2025, and the new HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. made headlines with some deeply concerning statements about autism.

6:01

And the newly mentioned Secretary of Health and Human Services, he referred to autism as a disease and an epidemic, claiming that people on the spectrum “devastated” families and they would “never pay taxes, never work, never go on a date, never play baseball.” Ugh, his words reflect the same fears I’ve heard from many parents and others, but they’re not only inaccurate, they’re dangerous. And our family, and so many we know and love and respect, felt the wave of how these statements perpetuated harmful stereotypes, reducing individuals to their struggles rather than their capabilities.

Okay, y’all, hard stop, autism is not a disease. It’s a neurology. It’s a different way of experiencing the world, and when we view autism as a complex neurodevelopmental condition with strong genetic foundations instead of as a “preventable disease,” we make an essential shift away from fear and shame and towards better support and inclusion so all autistic individuals can thrive. And the reason we’ve seen an increase in autism diagnosis isn’t due to some environmental “epidemic” as RFK suggests. It’s because we’re getting better at identifying it, especially in previously overlooked individuals like women, Black and brown and non-binary folks.

RFK’s recent call to an autism registry, which has since been dialed or walked back by some, you know, he wanted to create this to support his efforts to find the environmental “cause” reflects his deep — well, it reflects a lot of things. But for the purpose of this conversation, it reflects his deep, profound lack of understanding of the autism spectrum and that he spent no time truly listening to the voices of those with autism or the brilliant scientists who have done thousands of studies or the teachers or the loved ones who are supporting the autistic community and so many more people.

8:23

As the Disability Rights Community often says, “Nothing about us without us.” And this is the perfect example of how an influential figure like RFK Jr. can perpetuate stigma while ignoring the actual needs and desires of the autistic community and their loved ones. But we can push back by inviting autistic voices to the table and platforming them in the spaces we live, work, and lead, and maybe even just we can step aside and simply just listen.

But I also want to talk about productivity for a moment, and we’ve touched on this in this show. This is a whole series in itself. But specifically to RFK Jr.’s rhetoric and what we said about folks with autism and what they couldn’t ever do, it implies that worth is tied to the ability to work, to date, to contribute to society in ways that he sees and deems normal. I know so many of you kind of struggle with this tension too of separating your worth and value from your productivity. I get it. I struggle with it too. It’s hard in this culture. This view is deeply rooted in our culture’s obsession with efficiency and output and greed and our addiction to grind culture, which values a person based on how much they can produce, work, create, do. And if you have a relational trauma history, [Laughs] let me tell you, one of the most common and socially acceptable ways that you avoid feeling not enough is through excelling at your work and achievements, and by excelling I mean doing all the things really, really well all the time and just grinding and going and performing and getting all the praise and the accolade because this is a way of you adapted and grounded yourself through this workaholism and maybe even found worldly success.

10:29

But you did so in ways that truly aren’t sustainable interpersonally, emotionally, or physically. And you know this kind of productivity is not working for you, and when folks like RFK Jr. further stigmatize those who do not produce in these toxic ways, you feel it personally. But we know the most thriving societies in our world value everyone, not just those who fit narrow definitions of productivity because they invest in care and access and education and equity and in humanity.

So how do we, as leaders, challenge ourselves to create a world where everyone’s welcome, even those who don’t fit a very burdened mold? I believe it starts by listening to those in the autistic community, right, just listening. It involves facing our own fears and discomforts without getting bogged down with perfection and just focus on doing the next right thing. And how can we lead in ways that aren’t tied solely to productivity or conformity but instead embrace the full spectrum of what it means to be human? Without losing our souls, I really do believe we can be productive, profitable, and impactful. But (but, but, but) we need to first check our definitions of what it means to be productive, profitable, and impactful because the burdens of ableism are slippery and insidious.

As someone in an able body, it really is tricky and not something to feel guilt or shame about. It is just amazing how we can move through the world without thinking about certain things, and starting to think about others’ lived experiences, it’s a good thing. It’s a win, win.

12:26

And we need to check our narrow views of what success is and learn to see people not as labels or as data points or as dollar signs, but as individuals with unique abilities, perspectives, and values. This takes work!

I know everyone’s tired. We’re all tired. [Laughs] This is a different kind of work. This kind of work, I promise you — and I know many of you get this already. I’m preaching to the choir here, but these are spaces where I start to feel more alive, more connected, more out of my head. It takes intention and vulnerability and community and support to change how we see ourselves in the world for the better, and it’s not just this intellectual practice or a box to check. It’s a commitment for us right now. It’s a wholehearted commitment to developing tools and practices to help our nervous systems build trust so we have the capacity to speak up when no one else is and to live our values and to advocate for those who don’t have a voice or have less role and status power and to be able to do that imperfectly. And I know, I know. Easier said than done.

Today’s conversation with my guests will help you consider how we can move past these toxic, very dehumanizing views and start leading with more compassion and understanding. It’s a theme. It’s a theme on this show: compassion, understanding, curiosity. And I’m so happy to welcome back two Unburdened Leader guests for this very special leadership roundtable on autism.

14:16

So first, welcome back to Meg Raby who’s an autistic, female children’s author of the My Brother Otto series. She’s a speech and language pathologist. She’s a writer for Scary Mommy and a full-time employee of the nation’s leading non-profit in sensory inclusion called KultureCity. At any given moment, Meg — and this is so true — is thinking about how to better love the humans around her and how to create positive change without causing division. That’s Meg’s essence in a sentence for sure.

And Eric Garcia, ah, welcome back to Eric Garcia! He and I have so much fun. He and I, we can hop on and DM about all things politics. He’s brilliant. He’s an incredible writer. He’s the Senior Washington Correspondent for The Independent and the author of We’re Not Broken: Why We Need to Change the Autism Conversation. He’s also a columnist for MSNBC. He previously worked as an assistant editor at The Washington Post “Outlook” section and as an associate editor on The Hill as well as a correspondent for The National Journal, MarketWatch, Roll Call. He’s also written for Daily Beast, The New Republic, Salon.com. And Eric is a graduate of The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

Okay, Meg and Eric remind us that it’s not about a cure or fitting people into a box when it comes to autism, when it comes to welcoming all. It’s about creating a world where everyone can thrive regardless of where they fall on the spectrum. All right, y’all, let’s get to this important and beautiful Unburdened Leader Roundtable with Eric Garcia and Meg Raby!

—–

Rebecca Ching: Meg Raby, Eric Garcia, welcome back to The Unburdened Leader podcast! Thank you for making the time to have this conversation. I’m so thrilled.

16:21

Eric Garcia: What’s up! Thanks for having me.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes, thank you for having both of us.

Rebecca Ching: So there’s a lot I want to talk about with you, but I want to get a little personal and take you back, have a little bit of a reflection moment and have you share a specific time in your life when you felt unseen or misunderstood.

Eric Garcia: Constantly! I mean, I think a lot of the times when I felt unseen — I think probably one of the biggest times when I felt unseen was when I first moved to North Carolina. I was a transfer student. I was new to the state. I’d never lived in North Carolina. I just felt like I was in a completely different world, and I was a stranger in a strange land. I think regularly when I was in high school, that was when I felt unseen, and I think when I felt misunderstood was largely when I was in high school. And I think that, to this day, a lot of people misunderstand me and what I’m about but not as much anymore. I think that’s one reason why I yap so much on social media is because, more than anything, I don’t want to be misunderstood.

Rebecca Ching: Ah, thanks Eric. How about you, Meg?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah, I think mine leads more into feeling misunderstood so then therefore not being — I think if you’re misunderstood, those kind of go together, right?

Eric Garcia: They do!

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: If you’re not able to present yourself or to be known and to feel safe around a group of people, yeah, you’re gonna be unseen because they don’t know Eric, they don’t know Meg.

18:05

I would say what stands out to me is a job that I had at a hospital on the east coast. My personality — so I think as an autistic female I kind of wear my emotions on my sleeve and I’m a very actually optimistic individual. So I would come into the hospital and be like, “Good morning, everybody!” or “Good morning,” and name the person by name or want to share about — my background is as a speech and language pathologist, and I’d want to share about a child that I had just seen in a specific unit, and I always was looking to invite kind of other people into that excitement or experience with me. I literally got nicknamed “Midwest.” I’m from St. Louis, Missouri, and coworkers and I for some reason, we just were not a personality match, and that was very painful for me because I am an authentic human, and then so to feel like you can’t be yourself and share things and every day going into work and feeling like, “Okay –.” But also my impulse control was lacking then, too. So it was very hard for me not to still attempt to share and to connect with coworkers.

The saving grace in all of that time was my boss. I was very close with her, and she loved hearing about anything I wanted to share or greeting, and she was like, “Yeah, your coworkers are just a little bit not sure what to do with your personality,” and I was like, “Okay!” That was very painful for me because I would come home from work, and I’d have this mix of emotions of complete excitement over the families and kids that I was working with but then over am I kind of an imposter at my job because coworkers seem to not jive with me and seem to be kind of skeptical of my optimism, therefore, deemed Midwest was my nickname. Yep.

20:28

Rebecca Ching: What would you both say to your younger selves back in those times in high school and early work when you felt misunderstood, you didn’t feel seen. Like you said, Meg, being told, “People don’t know what to do with you.” What would you tell those younger versions of you now knowing what you know?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: I mean, that’s the beauty, I think, across all neurology of aging is as you get older and older and learn more about yourself, you realize you cannot please everyone even if you are well intentioned, even if you are coming from a very authentic or pure place. And if I could have known that, and if someone literally could have said that rule to me — so I’m such a person that — you know, I used to, as a kid and I still thrive off of black and white type of rules and whatnot. I’m definitely more nuanced in a lot of other areas, though, in my life now. But if someone could have said, “Hey, it’s gonna be almost impossible for you to believe me in this but be true to who you are and don’t feel shame around that, and you will find your people in that authenticity, and that will bring the freedom for you, and you won’t have to feel like this odd duck and give it time. If you just are authentic, you’re gonna attract those that are like, ‘Oh, Meg is for me. That is a friendship that I love,’  or ‘That is a coworking relationship that I love.’”

22:10

And it’s okay if not. I think yeah, that’s the main thing for me. It’s okay that even if you are trying to “follow the rules,” there still will be people that misunderstand you.

Rebecca Ching: How about you, Eric?

Eric Garcia: What I would say is, one, focus on your people, you know, find your people, find the people who are good for you. And the other thing that I would say and kind of going on Meg’s point is when you realize — because Meg and I are such a part of such an interesting generation of autistic people because we’re both millennials and we’re both part of the ADA generation. It’s interesting because we are still of a generation that was told to conform and to contort ourselves into something rather than to allow ourselves to express ourselves in the way that we are able to. And I think what I would say now is the moment you stop trying to operate like everybody else and instead try to be the best version of you and operate on your system, that’s the moment that you’re really gonna, if not be happy, at least be most comfortable.

Rebecca Ching: Hearing you both talk brings me back to an IEP meeting I had for my daughter, and it was their last one at her elementary school, and everyone was talking about trying to get her to do this and to say this and to stop this and stop that because they didn’t want other people to feel repelled or rejected. And I said, “Whoa, whoa whoa. Our job is not to get everyone to like my daughter and be BFFs. I want her to be safe. I want her to learn. I want her to have dignity. If someone’s gonna have an attitude and get weirded out because Hazel’s showing up as her authentic self, then fine. That’s on them. But our job isn’t to try and get everyone. And we have to be okay watching that discomfort,” you know? And they all kind of took a [Sigh].

24:15

I think I was saying it as much for myself, but there’s this pressure, we all feel it like, “Let’s not have anyone not like us,” and then we end up contorting to something that is so far from who we are. So I love that wisdom that you both shared with your younger selves.

One of the biggest reasons I wanted to invite you both back to the pod is to talk about the conversation that’s happening in culture right now around vaccines causing autism.

Eric Garcia: Oh, lord.

Rebecca Ching: And Eric —

Eric Garcia: You’re really gonna do this to me today? You’re really gonna do this to me today?

Rebecca Ching: I invited you, and you accepted. So I’m gonna go with that. I’m gonna go with that, Eric. You have full consent to leave at any time.

Eric Garcia: [Laughs] No, I’m just saying that it happened today.

Rebecca Ching: Of all days. Of all days, the political reporter that you are, Eric. Just moments before we started recording, RFK was confirmed to be our new Health and Human Services Secretary, which guts me. My former boss had a lot of leadership in that department, and it hits home. But I want you to speak for yourselves. You’re not the spokespeople for everyone who’s autistic or anyone who’s neurodivergent, but this is mostly geared for folks who don’t have an understanding and are not understanding the impact of what, particularly, someone with a very large, well-funded platform claims that vaccines cause autism. Please share. I’d love for you to share what are those immediate thoughts and emotions that come up for you?

Eric Garcia: Literally just I’m doing the Kendrick Lamar grinning meme right now. [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: That’s so awesome. [Laughs]

26:01

Eric Garcia: All kidding aside, I think that, more than anything, it’s alarming because once these ideas enter into the public discourse, it’s very impossible to unring that bell. So to see RFK Jr. get confirmed is almost like a confirmation that you cannot undo the damage. This damage has resonating and lasting effects because, as late as 2008, John McCain and Barack Obama were talking about vaccines and autism. And so, I think that with Bobby Kennedy what it shows is that because he was a Kennedy, that gave him some kind of credence and legitimacy. After he promoted it, he gave it a big, huge megaphone. Donald Trump is also an anti-vaxxer too. Even though, ironically, Trump’s biggest — we can give Trump credit, you know? Trump’s biggest accomplishment as president was Operation Warp Speed. Unequivocally, I will give Trump all the credit in the world for that, for Operation Warp Speed: the creation of the COVID-19 vaccine. So it’s ironic now that he is having a Health and Human Services Secretary who would undo his greatest accomplishment.

Rebecca, you know this. You’re a Hill woman. Republicans used to be seen as the responsible party. The democrats are the ones who go off and do these excessive things. They’re the ones who spend like drunken sailors. They go and do this and that. Republicans were the smart ones, were the party of science, were the party of smart people, were the party of business, were the party of commerce, you know? That’s how they built themselves. So to see themselves roll over for Trump in such a big way and give somebody they know is not qualified is, I think, the bigger damning indictment than Trump nominating RFK Jr.

Rebecca Ching: And I want to get into some of that some more, but I want listeners to hear how this feels to you, personally. When both of you hear that — because I’ve got a teenage daughter that’s like, “Am I an accident? Is there something wrong with me?” You guys are brilliant people. What does this bring up for you personally, first and foremost?

28:20

Eric Garcia: You know, I’ve been spending the last 10 years writing about this, and I can’t help but feel I failed because after 30 years of understanding, after 34 years after the IDEA, which was signed by a Republican president, 34 years after the ADA, we’re still having these conversations on autism as a tragedy. That’s the core of the anti-vaccine movement, really, is that autism is something that is bad and therefore needs to be avoided.

And that I think is the real — public health stuff aside because that’s dangerous. We all agree that part of it is dangerous. But the fact that we’re still talking about how to stop autism, the fact that we’re talking about how to prevent it, and the fact that now Trump is talking about potentially doing more research into the link between vaccines and autism. Even though this is settled science, he’s talked about “something’s wrong.” He says that it’s an epidemic. We’re still having these conversations. And I think the point that I’m making, I think what I want to say is that why in the hell are we still spending time doing this when we have so much bigger fish to fry?

Heart disease is the biggest killer of autistic people without intellectual disabilities, and epilepsy is the biggest killer of autistic people with intellectual disabilities. The second biggest killer of autistic people without intellectual disabilities is suicide. We still don’t know a lot about aging and autism. There’s a lot of misinformation there. We don’t know what the best services are to help autistic people transition into adulthood. Why are we focusing on this bullshit when there are so many other things we can do? I think that’s the frustrating thing.

30:13

You know, I joke with a friend of mine who — it’s funny, I almost feel like my friends who work in climate policy are like, “The science is already there! Let’s just focus on something about it.” And I’m like, “The science is already there, so let’s not focus on this. Let’s focus on something else,” you know? So I think that’s — but yeah, that’s what I would say.

Rebecca Ching: Meg, how about you? How do you feel when you’re hearing, repeatedly, that vaccines cause autism? What impact does that have on you?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: A couple of things, for sure. I think before even jumping into that, I’ve just been wrapping my head around these last few weeks and politics in general and what does this mean in this moment of history for humanity and, yeah, for being autistic in this moment of history. Something that I have been trying to practice is seeing — I love, Eric, that you brought up something that you can even agree on somewhat with Trump because I do feel like we’re at this state where things are just so chaotic and there’s a lot of unsettling things that we are seeing moment to moment right now, and for me, with Robert Kennedy, I told myself, I was like the one thing I can say that I do agree with, with him, is I like the idea of trying to get healthy food options and all of that and to really put emphasis on taking care of the body. I like that. And then the thing that is detrimental, though, with this, with the anti-vaccine message is a lot, because I’ll relate it to speech language pathology and the kids and families that I’ve worked with.

32:10

So I’ve walked with a lot of families through the initial diagnosis of autism, and I always give them the same speech of, “You’re allowed, absolutely, to feel what you want to feel, you know? And I can tell right now you’re very scared, and you’re sad, and I totally get that. I think also media has shaped that, and preconceived notions of what autism is have shaped that, but I can’t let you stay there.” I tell them all the time, “If you stay there, I promise you your child is not, at least under your house, gonna get to the level of possibilities that they’re capable of if they don’t have that support system of, ‘All right! You’re autistic. That’s great! We’re gonna support you and provide what you need, and we’re gonna celebrate you just because you’re our son or our daughter.’” Because I have seen time and time again it’s the parents and caregivers that embrace their child and are just celebrating absolutely every victory and just understanding that my son is not my son without the autism, my daughter is not my daughter without the autism, that’s a completely different human.

I think the idea, then — you now are bringing up vaccines, and there are large sample size studies out there. I know in Japan they literally took away vaccines and the “rate” of autism diagnoses went up during that time, and it was, like, 70,000 people in the sample size or something. I think it’s just doing what Eric was saying. It’s just doing such a disservice because then all the energy and focus goes onto, “Oh, my gosh. Is it the vaccine?”

34:05

And it’s like, okay, you still have your child in front of you, and your child is gonna grow up — I think it’s becoming more talked about, for sure. But even the people that are adults that are coming out as autistic now, if we didn’t have those adults, we wouldn’t have the advancements that we have to this day.

Eric Garcia: Yeah.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: It’s wild to think about. You actually even need autism, and that said, I also don’t want to negate — I think the overlap thing is there is a variety of how autism presents itself. However, if you do have a child or adult with “high-support needs,” I agree that we need to put money into figuring out how can we support them better and is there anything we can research to do to make their life not so hard, right? I’m okay and all on board for that. Wherever we can reduce any sort of harm, please, sign me up. Let’s do it. But I think we have to piece out, well, what is the autism because part of me is also like I think autism gets lumped in with there’s a lot of other diagnoses that go with autism, and so, I’m kind of like are you guys really even talking about autism, or are you talking about the secondary diagnoses or the co-diagnoses with autism?

Rebecca Ching: So I want to circle back on something you both touched on, and as someone in my clinical training who’s trained in trauma, particularly relational trauma, and when I have someone come in and they’re talking about their kid, and I’m like, “Oh, have you ever had them assessed for autism or any other kind of neurodivergence,” the immediate fear is, “I don’t want my kid to be singled out.”

36:05

And then when I inquire about that, “Tell me more about that fear. What happened when you were younger?” “Well, “I was bullied,” or “I was a bully, and I feel horrible about it,” or “I saw how other people were treated who were different or how my family treated –.” And then there’s this interesting intersection because with the mama bear parts, the papa bear parts, or any caregiver, there’s something very primal about that, very biological to be protective. But if you have this noise of, “If I’m not giving my kid perfect food, they’re off-screen time, whatever the thing is, I am bad, I am a failure.”

And so, shame is running things. If shame is, “I am bad. I’m a bad mom,” it’s like — there was a point with Hazel early in her diagnosis I said to her, she didn’t notice but I was like, “Hey, if I did anything that in any way is gonna make your life harder than it needed to be, I’m sorry.” And then I had to look in the mirror and go, “Hey, whatever — if there is –,” because I even had to think, “Did I do something because this is bad?” But underneath it, it was, “I don’t want my daughter to have a hard life,” but even more, as we walk with her and I walk with other people, it can be really uncomfortable being misunderstood in public by people you don’t even know.

Looking at the capacity we have as a culture for discomfort, for being misunderstood, we try to lock in control. And as a parent, what can you control? I can control the food. I can control the healthcare. I can control what you watch on TV. And so, Meg, when you’re talking about the parents, “I’m not gonna let you stay there,” because I know for me, if I would have stayed there in whatever I had breathed in and internalized versus, “My gosh, I’m raising a baller daughter who’s gonna kick ass in this world, whatever that looks like, who’s along and if you’re not along then you’re not welcome, let’s go!” I just became vehement about that. So yeah, I’ll let that breathe for a second with you.

38:08

I want to bring up the Wakefield Study, but I don’t know if you have anything to say to that?

Eric Garcia: To your point about your daughter, the problem with IEP still I think is that they’re still very deficit based. They’re not strength based. And look, I’m not saying that there are deficits. No autistic person I know likes having a meltdown. They’re horrible. But we’re still focusing on deficits and not what they can achieve, not what they can do, and I’m worried that focusing on deficits creates almost a two-tiered education system, and I worry that we’re gonna leave a lot of people with students’ disabilities behind.

Rebecca Ching: Yeah. Meg, do you want to flow in?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: It’s making me think of a conversation that I had a few years ago. So I went to a Utah Jazz basketball game, an NBA game, and I was there with the actor, his name is Chirs Gorham, and I didn’t know who he was. But we were sitting right by each other and chatting. I even was like, “What do you do?” And he tells me that he’s in all these different shows, and it took until the very end of his list for me to go, “Oh, my goodness, yes! When I was a kid I snuck and watched Gossip Girl –,”

Eric Garcia: Oh!

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: “–when my parents would leave the house. He was in that. Anyways, I think we maybe watched a total of four or five minutes of the actual game because he has an autistic son, and we were just adding a lot about how we focus so much on ourselves and what we think, you know, about our child or what we think about another person that is autistic versus going, “Oh, look! They’re happy, and they are doing wonderfully.” It’s like when you were even talking, Rebecca, the word “projection” just kept coming up into my head, and I was like I think we all do that.

40:06

Rebecca Ching: For sure.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: I think even if your child is not autistic, you absolutely do that. You see them as an extension of yourself at times, and you think you’re supposed to be in control of absolutely everything and they’re supposed to grow up in a 9-5 job that can support them financially and have this amount of friends, have a partner. We think all those things is what defines happiness, but if you are given a different brain and neurology and different experiences and you are still operating at your best, and you’re happy, it’s like if we could get to a place where we can understand that is beautiful and good and right, that could alleviate a lot of the unnecessary stress on the parents and caregivers and then also tap into focusing on, kind of like what Eric was saying with all of this research, let’s focus in on the strengths that they do have and come alongside them versus, again, just being this deficit-space focus.

Rebecca Ching: When we put moral meaning on something, like we’ve done with what we deem as healthy, like a pretty jacked up and scary view of health that’s really dancing with some dangerous things that we’ve seen in history that have led to things like the concentration camps during World War II. Whenever there’s moral meaning, there’s shame.

Eric Garcia: Assigning morality to anything is always a dangerous game. One of my friends who’s a hardcore libertarian says beware of any law that’s named after a child, and I really like that.

Rebecca Ching: Ooh.

Eric Garcia: Because what it does is it assigns morality, like, “Are you gonna vote against this child,” you know? Assigning morality to anything is very dangerous. It’s such a way to stir up world panic.

Rebecca Ching: It’s interesting because when you go back to there is a place for ethics, right?

Eric Garcia: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: Laws, I mean, we’re seeing this now. And with the Wakefield Study, I didn’t know the extent, and on The Maintenance Phase podcast, they did a two-part special a couple summers ago on RFK, and they went on a deep dive.

Eric Garcia: I advised on that, yeah.

42:23

Rebecca Ching: You did? Okay, and so, I had no idea there was a whole book written on the study and how terribly they treated the participants in that study. That just sounded horrible. And there was a very small, small sample size, and how they recruited people, the ethics were gone on something that has blown up our sense of what’s healthy and good. When we put moral meaning on something but having a sense of how do we see human beings and having an ethic and honoring appropriate constructs of laws that really keep us safe, we’re seeing everything kind of getting crumbly right now, and I think this is such a good kind of focus on that too. So anyways, I just wanted to make sure to name that with that Wakefield Study because it wasn’t just discredited. It was the worst of the worst kind of studies that was done.

Eric Garcia: It was incredibly unethical, and I mean, it reminds me — another one, we can’t talk — you know, some example. Ole Ivar Lovaas, the father of ABA, was also really crucial in creating conversation therapy.

Rebecca Ching: Ugh, I know!

Eric Garcia: You know this story, Rebecca, that one of the first studies he did, one of the subjects of their studies on conversation therapy, he wound up killing himself because of the pressure. They named him Craig in the study, but his name is Kirk Murphy, and the amount of them trying to — all the aversions that they used ultimately, you know, his parents, his family attributed to him killing himself because he was trying to behave in a heterosexual, heteronormative manner. And so, not only are these types of studies discredited, they are often grossly unethical.

44:07

Rebecca Ching: And I think when we are scared and vulnerable, we can be — that’s a tender place. My mantra this year is protect my outrage because when I’m in outrage, I’m more open to being manipulated and move away from my values. And so, I hear you talk about that, I’m like, “Ugh!” But I mean, I think there is a certain sense of rage, you know, because it’s so deeply disturbing. But we’re supporting people, in all levels of power, that don’t have a sense of really working on being in right relationship with each other and honoring — we’re pathologizing, making diversity a bad thing versus seeing it as better.

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46:12

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[Inspirational Music]

Rebecca Ching: So for leaders, right, leaders of all kinds, whether they’re a teacher, principal, someone in a small business or a big corporation, in politics, a non-profit, how can they challenge this public information about autism in a way that is effective? Because they might be like, “I’m not an expert, so I don’t know what to say.” What would you say to those folks who know that this is wrong but are not sure how to best challenge misinformation?

Eric Garcia: I mean, it’s really tough because like I was reading in The Washington Post how Xavier Becerra, the former HHS Secretary under President Biden, he said, “Look, I can’t compete with social media,” you know? “I can write as many books as I want to, I can write as many articles as I want to, but I can’t compete with TikTok, I can’t compete with YouTube.” Not to be all doom and gloom, though I am much more of a pessimist than Meg is.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: That’s why I wanted you both on this conversation.

Eric Garcia: But, like, look, no, the algorithm is real, you know? But the point that I would make is that I think that the democratic party lost this last election is that they have kind of become the — you know, Rebecca, you remember this because you worked for Harkin when the democratic party was the party of the working man, valued labor and things like that and valued working people.

48:18

And now they’re just so damn elite, and now they’re the party of, “I know better than you.” I think the worst thing you could do is discredit what people feel, and instead I think what you need to do is take that real fear and that anger, like Meg said, and channel it and direct it.

So, you know, if parents are upset with how overwhelmed they are with the autism diagnosis, things like that, I think the thing that you say is, “No, you are right, and your feelings of being overwhelmed are valid because there aren’t a lot of services, there aren’t a lot of things. And I want you to know that someone like RFK is making money off of this. He got a job as the top health official in America by doing this and feeding off of fear, not actually caring. And I think what you need to do is you need to redirect it. You need to channel that anger. You need to take those legitimate fears and direct them somewhere else rather than just talk down to them, rather than just say, ‘I know more than you.’”

Because I’ll say this. When I was at the RNC last year in Milwaukee, I ran into people who’ve read my book and who said, “Oh, I saw your book,” or “I was at an event –.” A lot of them — you’d be surprised if you go to Trump rallies how many parents of kids with disabilities there are because they feel the system has failed them.

50:05

And so, they kind of do want to pick someone like Donald Trump who will blow up the system, and I think what you need to do is you need to say, “Look, I understand that fury you’re feeling. The fury is real. And at the same time, I want you to know that burning everything down won’t make it better.” Because I understand that feeling. Look, I came up when I was a teenager, and I was in heavy metal bands and all of that. I had a soul patch back in the day. But I understand that impulse of wanting to take a Molotov cocktail and — you know, I was with my dad last week, and my dad’s very, very Republican. And my dad has asked me at one point, “At what point, when you’re doing all this autism stuff, do you want to burn it down?” And I said, “About twice a week.” I said, “But I stop myself because I’m an adult,” you know? And I think it’s okay to want to burn it down pretty regularly. But you stop yourself. And I think that’s what you need to do is not talk down to people but take those real emotions and help them redirect it into a productive way.

Rebecca Ching: How about you, Meg? What do you say to the leaders that want to challenge misinformation about autism but are not sure how to move forward, not feeling like they know enough?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: I think similar to what Eric just said, meeting them exactly where they’re at and not being quick to — you’re not gonna be effective if you just jump on someone and you’re like, “Oh, that sign says vaccines aren’t real or that it’s not connected to autism.” Isn’t it almost like everything in life? It’s almost like you have to develop some sort of a rapport and relationship with the people that you are leading. You’ve got to hear them out. You’ve got to be curious about them too. I think that’s the thing for politics today.

52:00

I think if we could actually sit down and we all acknowledge we all have very different beliefs and very different ideas on even what a new policy looks like and how some people will say, “That’s a great policy!” and then everyone else is like, “That’s terrible!” I think if we could sit down and say, “Can you explain to me what it is that you’re scared of if even vaccines caused autism,” you know what I  mean? “Let’s talk about that.”

Rebecca Ching: Ask questions.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Eric Garcia: Yeah.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Isn’t that the ABCs of therapy and psychology is just getting people to explain themselves and to know they can do it safely, that you’re not gonna completely  jump on them. Though that is definitely very hard at times, for sure, to hold back. But yeah, no, I think that asking the questions and making sure to give space for them to voice how they’re feeling and what their actual concerns are.

It is interesting to think about what if the person does just say — it almost makes you want to cry because you’re thinking about what that person really feels about — they’re worried about the harm for their child or the harm for their family member. And so, that’s where that pain is. So if we can validate, “I am so sorry about all the time, effort, lack of sleep that you guys have had over this,” and if we can show them that we can come alongside them and show them support too so that they can have the bandwidth to even think about why it’s important to probably not worry about vaccines, do you know what I mean? They need to know, too, that they are supported and that we’re in this together and we want the best for their child, the best for their family member. But focusing on something that already adds so much time and attention just backtracks us. Yeah, it’s just like anything in life. If you just pause and figure out why the person is feeling the way they’re feeling and so adamant to be looking into vaccines again even, why is this brought — it is dumbfounding a little bit that this is being brought up again when we have found so much progress. And now it’s a little bit like, “Uh, well, we did move forward.” Yeah.

54:28

Eric Garcia: I’ll give a perfect example, like, when Trump first nominated RFK, I was talking to Senator Tommy Tuberville. Meg, you’ll understand that. Those elevators that go to the Senate floor. We were talking with him, and we said, “What do you think about RFK?” And he was like, “My sons really like the health stuff,” and I said, “Yeah, well, what do you think about the vaccines and autism thing?” And I was just like, “Uh…” He said, “Well, a lot of people are worried about that.” He said, “We see the increase in autism.” And I said, “Yeah, people like me?” He said, “You’re autistic?” I said, “Yeah.” He was like, “Did you take the vaccine?” [Laughs]

You know, I think about it, and I could have very easily said, “No, you jackass. That’s not what made me autistic.” You know, I could have very easily gone off on him. And trust me, there are times I’ve wanted to. But I realize that wouldn’t be productive, and look, I know I’m not gonna be like — one of the things that since writing about this more regularly, I recognize I have an impulse all the time, like everybody else. Yeah, I want to dunk on people when they say ridiculous stuff, but I realize I can’t anymore. I realize now, as a public official, as a public figure, I have to be more responsible. Every once in a while yeah, somebody blocks me. My feeling is everybody has — there’s an opportunity for me to actually engage with them and talk with them and hear them out. Some people you’re never gonna reach. Some people you’re never gonna hit. And at that point, you’re gonna say, “Meh,” and hit the block button. The block button is your friend. Every once in a while I’ll lose my patience and just fire something off, and almost always I regret it, you know, almost.

56:18

But I think that, you know, you have to be generous, and like I said, because later on during RFK’s hearing, Tuberville said, “When I was a kid, ADHD, they got dealt with a belt.” And I could, again, say, “You know, you’re actively harming people. This is dangerous. You have rocks in your socks,” you know? “Your head is full of concrete.” But that’s not gonna fix anything, you know? And there are a lot of people in Alabama who believe that, and he’s reflective of his constituents. So that’s not gonna do anything. So more and more I just realize, to your point, you’ve got to save your rage. You’ve got to save your anger and your outrage. Focus on the stuff that can actually change things, and don’t focus a lot on the stuff that gets you mad, and you can’t fix anything, you know?

Rebecca Ching: And I think story is also a great thing, and I’ve really appreciated being able to share your books. Meg, My Brother Otto, and Eric, We’re Not Broken: Changing The Autism Conversation are books I’m handing out, throwing them out like cards. I went and brought a whole stack of these books to my kids’ schools.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Aww!

Eric Garcia: Thank you!

Rebecca Ching: Because of the stories and the way you approach that, and I think telling my own story about my experience, that’s kind of — our brains are wired to hear those stories.

But I want to shift to something else that I’ve actually told people I’m falling on my sword on this one, and I’m curious where you land. I’m wondering what do you see the difference between offering grace and compassion for difference and ableism? Like, whether you throw a Sieg Heil, or you are buying —

58:09

Eric Garcia: Oh, fine. We’re gonna talk about Elon? Okay, fine. let’s go. Okay, all bets are off, fine. Fine.

Rebecca Ching: Well, let me just — before you go in — but also mental health, right? You’ve got Kanye or Ye, because he has got some pretty serious mental health issues, but also is so antisemitic and dangerous, and these folks have big followings, and people do things to people. And so, I think this is an important question because for me I had this — you know, Meg, you talked about how we kind of have these inner translators. I have an inner translator, but when I heard the excuses for — I’m just using these two individuals because they’re recent, and I know it’s kind of sexy to be polarized around them, but I think they’re good examples that happened. And where is compassion versus where is it ableism? And so I’d just, yeah, love for both of your thoughts.

Eric Garcia: Well, I’ll say this. It’s funny because I couldn’t actually get into The Capitol area when Trump was inaugurated that day. So I had to sit in the — me and a few of my friends who work for a Jewish newsletter were sitting next to each other in the Dirksen cafeteria. You know that area in the Dirksen building? I’m sure you’ve had many meals there. But what was funny was that we’re watching after Trump’s speech is done, and then we see that the speech is at The Capital One arena, and I see Elon do the Sieg Heil. Look, I’m a goy, so I immediately ask my — for the gentiles that’s Yiddish for not Jewish. I say to my friends who are Jewish, I’m just like, “Did he just do –? I don’t even have a right to say this because I’m not Jewish.”

1:00:00

And they rewound it and were like, “No, that was it.” Given a lot of the other antisemitic things Elon Musk has said — it wouldn’t have been okay even if he had just done that in a vacuum. But given the way he just casually peddled antisemitism the past few years, he can’t fake it.

And then just seeing people who did want to believe that he would do something like that immediately attribute it to autism was so repugnant and nauseating in a way that I can’t describe because A, they were using Asperger, we could talk about that. That in and of itself is like, “Come on. Get with the picture.” B, given Hans Asperger’s collaboration with the Nazi regime, like are we really going to do this? And then C —

Rebecca Ching: Eric, hold on a second. Because I think whether he did or didn’t, but to “blame his autism” and say, “Oh, that’s just –.” Using autism as an excuse for bad behavior. I think that’s what I want —

Eric Garcia: Which is bullshit.

Rebecca Ching: Okay. [Laughs]

Eric Garcia: And the thing that was funny is that one of my friends, her son’s autistic, and she’s Jewish. And she said, “That’s not an autism thing! My son doesn’t –.” And I was like, “No, no, look, that’s just not.” It’s not like he was doing toe walking. It’s not like he was — I saw a great Tweet that said, “Yeah, the issue isn’t that Elon’s into trains. It’s what kind of trains he’s into.”

Rebecca Ching: Oh.

Eric Garcia: But the point being is the fact that it was almost exclusively non-autistic people using that as an excuse.

Rebecca Ching: That’s — yeah. Yeah.

1:02:06

Eric Garcia: And every autistic person was like, “No. That’s not acceptable. Under no circumstances.” It showed that people were using that as an excuse because they wanted to defend Elon for other reasons, you know?

Rebecca Ching: Okay Meg, I really want to — yes, thank you, Eric. How about you, Meg?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: My takeaway with the Elon thing was why not — you know, if it was “an accident,” you know, if it was, why not just publicly say, “Oh, my gosh. I’m so sorry”? Why not step into that place of fixing the “misconception”? Why not put energy into that? Especially paired with the phrase of what was it, like, “My heart is for you all”? Why not make that make sense then, because to say that and then to do that action just doesn’t necessarily make sense. [Laughs] I think the question of compassion and ableism is a tricky one.

Rebecca Ching: Right?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Very specifically a tricky one for me.

Eric Garcia: It so is, yeah.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes, because I actually recently wrote an article in Scary Mommy. I refer to it as retrospective hyper-empathy.

Rebecca Ching: Ooh.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Where I can kind of see where people come from, and that message is very loud, personally, to me. I can think of, “Oh, you know.” When you think about, you know, even Elon, he was three years old at some point, you know? And what got him to where he is, or I can start to make excuses for things, which this could be a whole other podcast. But that actually ended up — and I know Eric knows this too, but it left me in my former marriage for a lot longer of a time than I should have been in that marriage because I was like, “I get why he is doing what he’s doing, and I understand his background, and I can have compassion for that.” But it’s that, I don’t know. It’s definitely not black and white. When you tap into your harming, you know, that’s definitely an indicator that something new has to be done or tried out, right? If harm is perpetually happening over and over and over again —

Rebecca Ching: Accountability is needed.

1:04:33

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah, you could have compassion that they’re human and compassion that maybe this is how they feel their best self, which is a huge thing that is missing in general is I tell people all the time more than “monetary success,” more than “academic success” for my kids, I hope that empathy is what they take out of our household, a lot of, and that they always remember that that is what is championed. Because I think if you can’t have empathy, you can have behavioral changes by yelling at someone, by causing that harm, but it’s not internal. It’s not a true — which could be — yeah, it’s not systemic if it’s just all this behavioral stuff that’s happening.

That’s one though, that, Rebecca, I’ll be honest, I still until this day struggle with. I’m like, yeah, what is that line? What does that look like when you do realize they have stepped into repeated harm? And it’s causing harm either personally or for a group of people. What’s the right tone? What’s the right approach? What is the action that needs to happen? Life is interesting. [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, for sure. You know, you both touched on the fact that how a lot of the folks that were pushing back and correcting were not neurodivergent. I mean, I don’t know if anyone was for sure, but at least the ones that were getting a lot of the press were folks that — and I thought that just was noteworthy. And I wanted to bring that forward.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

1:06:13

Rebecca Ching: One final question. Thank you for rumbling with that with me. One other thing I want to address too is there’s this phrase: neurodiversity affirming. It’s kind of like a very important framework, but it’s also become a big buzzword in business, in marketing to signal inclusivity, sometimes in a performative way, sometimes in a legitimate way, and I just would love for you both to share what you want leaders to know about supporting and uplifting autistic individuals, whether in the workplace, schools, or their families. And not just in a performative way, right? Not through a five-day class or reading a book. That doesn’t make someone an expert. But even if they’re not an expert, how can leaders really make it a point to uplift autistic individuals in their circles of influence? Go for it, Eric.

Eric Garcia: Yeah, I mean, because I struggle with this a lot, you know? I’ll give you an example. I live in Washington, DC. And I live in Logan Circle, and that area has kind of become the gayborhood, you know? I think about that, and I bring that up because I see a lot of companies doing almost rainbow washing of their corporate brands where, you know, they’ll have $5 off a beer for pride, but then those same beer companies donate to candidates who oppose same-sex marriage, you know? Or they just do token hires of gay people, but they’re not in management, they’re not actually promoted, they’re not actually able to move up in their company or whatever.

1:08:04

And I see the same thing with — I think that we’re having kind of this debate now with DEI, you know? Where conservatives are adamantly opposed to DEI and then a lot of people say DEI is really good for people. But even a lot of people of color and a lot of Black people say, “Well, DEI is meant to avoid lawsuits, but it actually doesn’t fix the structural problems with it.” Rather than making a big fuss about neurodiversity, at least neurodiversity hiring problems right now — and I’m not knocking them. I think some of them are great. I would say focus on your own house first because whether you know it or not, you have neurodivergent people just like how in the past you had gay employees and you didn’t know it because they were too ashamed to come out as gay. Whether you know it or not, you have neurodivergent employees. And before you open your doors, you should clean your house. And I think that’s gonna be the most important thing is making it long lasting and making it so that it’s not just a corporate pledge that you do to get a score from a nonprofit. But it’s actually something that makes things structurally better. I think that’s what I want to see more than anything.

Rebecca Ching: Thank you, Eric. Meg?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: I loved that, the cleaning up your own house. And then I would just say this is a fascinating question for me because I couldn’t work for a more understanding and accommodating non-profit full-time, who I don’t have what I know is out there in other for-profit businesses and whatnot.

But I think also taking the idea that it can’t just be your implementing a program, you are implementing a three-day conference to learn about neurodivergent individuals and even their sensory profiles and how to make your space sensory accessible and inclusive.

1:10:08

It’s not just about that. It’s not just about rules and being able to spew out information. It’s you’ve got to get to know the people you work with or for, and you’ve got to leave space for them to be able to say, “Hey, I need support in this.” And to be doing check-ins where you can figure out if you see a switch in a performance or whatnot, being willing to ask questions like, “Hey, is there anything going on?” Again, you don’t even have to be neurodivergent for that kind of support, but that does go hand in hand for the kind of support that neurodivergent folks need in the workplace.

Again, I think it goes back to the other question you just asked about compassion and ableism, and it’s these lean towards being compassionate for sure, and then stepping in when that harm keeps showing itself. Yeah, as a leader, people are watching what you champion and what you talk about a lot. So don’t make it a once-a-year equips like, “We took our HIPAA certification, and we’re done.” These are humans that have families or friends or that don’t and are actually very alone, and that’s a very vulnerable thing. So the ongoing curiosity throughout the year and the ongoing support and check-ins I think are very important.

Rebecca Ching: That’s beautiful. That’s beautiful. Thank you both. I know we kind of hit some high-level topics and some hot topics, but it feels really timely, and I could not think of two better people to have this conversation. And so, Meg and Eric, where can people find you if they want to connect with your work and your writing? Yeah, so how can people stay connected with what you’re doing? Why don’t you go, Meg?

1:12:12

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: To connect with me? What would I say? I’m mostly on Instagram. I was laughing when you guys were talking about TikTok because I’ve not ventured into TikTok at all.

Rebecca Ching: Me neither. [Laughs]

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: But on Instagram, you mentioned My Brother Otto, so I’m a children’s author, and then I also write for Scary Mommy. So if you look up @megraby (a singular rabies), you’ll find me. [Laughs] Or if you go on KultureCity, I am located on there too and would love to chat about how we can get your places and spaces set up for inclusion and accessibilities specific to sensory processing. Yeah, I would say you can find me there!

Rebecca Ching: Awesome, Meg! What about you, Eric?

Eric Garcia: I’m extremely online.

Rebecca Ching: [Laughs] You are!

Eric Garcia: So you can follow me. You can follow me @ericmgarcia on Bluesky. You can follow me @ericmgarcia on Twitter or X, whatever Elon’s calling it now. And yeah, you can just follow me there.

Rebecca Ching: Instagram. You’re on Instagram a lot too.

Eric Garcia: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: And your book is available, We’re Not Broken.

Eric Garcia: Yeah! We’re Not Broken is available wherever books are sold. So yeah!

Rebecca Ching: And when is your new book gonna drop?

Eric Garcia: It should drop sometime next year if the news stops moving so fast, dear God.

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, good luck with that, Eric! [Laughs] Now, thank you both for taking time out of your full schedules. I appreciate you so much, and I am honored to know you and to continue having these conversations. Thank you so much!

14:00:00

Eric Garcia: Thanks so much!

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Thank you!

—–

Rebecca Ching: Before you go, I want to leave you with this: when fear leads, curiosity dies, and when curiosity dies, so does connection, community, and progress. Yes, being inclusive is inconvenient and acceptance is often uncomfortable, but choosing to lead with curiosity, courage, and an unburdened heart is how we build the kinds of communities, families, organizations, and nations we all deserve to be a part of. And I know all those are big words, y’all. I know those words can just float on by. But I know you’re here for this. I mean, my gosh, I know you all get that doing the right thing is inconvenient and uncomfortable. But I also want to say there’s so much joy in it too, I promise you.

And after listening to Meg and Eric today, make sure to go buy their books. My Brother Otto by Meg, her series there, and We’re Not Broken by Eric. Go buy their books! Go send them to people. These are my go-tos that I send to folks. I love them. And also follow Eric and Meg on social media and listen to them and other actually autistic voices that they platform and they connect you with. Your world will be better.

All right, so I’ve got a few questions for you. What does support look like for you to better understand how ableism and your burdened definitions of work and productivity impact how you lead yourselves and others, right? What does support look like? And what did you learn from Eric and Meg in this conversation in this roundtable that you want to share with your team and your friends? What’s something you took away that you want to talk about because I want you to talk about this conversation. And what is one thing you can say or do to help the spaces you live in and lead to be more inclusive, not just aware of autistic people?

Unburdened leadership requires rejecting the easy, burdened narratives about productivity, worthiness, and who belongs. It asks us to listen to the people most impacted. It demands that we dismantle the old miss that no longer serve us, or maybe, probably never did. And this is the ongoing work of an Unburdened Leader.

1:16:32

Thank you so much for joining this episode of The Unburdened Leader. If you haven’t already, I really encourage you to subscribe to The Unburdened Leader, and I’d be honored if you left a rating, a review, and shared this episode with a few people you think may benefit from it. And you can find this episode, show notes, other Unburdened Leader resources, along with ways to work with me at www.rebeccaching.com. You can also sign up for my upcoming Substack newsletter there too. And this episode was produced by the incredible people at Yellow House Media!

[Inspirational Music]