We persist for what matters most—for the people we lead, and the people we love.

But persistence can start to feel like just another weight to carry, another demand that drains us. 

And people are tired. So many of us are balancing caregiving, leadership, advocacy, a constant firehose of urgent crises, and maybe sneaking in some rest. So sure, persistence sounds good, but how do we keep going without flaming out?

We learn how to prune our proverbial gardens.

Pruning, whether a tomato plant or an out-of-control to-do list, requires focusing on the present so we can remove what no longer serves, while protecting what still has life in it. It’s persistence in action. It’s what keeps us from burning it all down and walking away or from our commitments taking over our lives.

Today’s guest offers us a masterclass in persistence. She started small. When resistance showed up, she didn’t just push through. She revisited her vision. She stayed in relationship with mentors and worked in community. And over time, she has built a global movement for disability, visibility, equity, and justice.

On today’s 35th anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act, Tiffany Yu shares a reminder that persistence isn’t about doing it all right away or quitting when it’s too much. It’s about staying focused, refining our vision, and staying connected to supportive people and your mission.

Tiffany Yu is the CEO and Founder of Diversability, a 3x TEDx speaker, and the author of The Anti-Ableist Manifesto: Smashing Stereotypes, Forging Change, and Building a Disability-Inclusive World. She started her career at Goldman Sachs and was named to the 2025 Forbes Accessibility 100 List. At the age of 9, Tiffany became disabled as a result of a car accident that also took the life of her father.

 

 

Listen to the full episode to hear:

• How the seeds of Tiffany’s disability activism were sown during her time at Georgetown
• How Tiffany’s delayed processing of her grief and trauma impacted her ability to connect with disabled joy
• Why it matters that all of us get invested in prioritizing accessibility and inclusion for the disability community
• Why accessibility is about more than just utility and needs to address the wholeness of people with disabilities
• What leaders can do now to craft more accessible and inclusive spaces and events
• The importance of community and using your influence to build bridges in the face of setbacks

 

Learn more about Tiffany Yu:

• Website
• Diversability
• Instagram: @imtiffanyyu
• Connect on LinkedIn
• The Anti-Ableist Manifesto: Smashing Stereotypes, Forging Change, and Building a Disability-Inclusive World

 

Learn more about Rebecca:

• rebeccaching.com
• Work With Rebecca
• The Unburdened Leader on Substack
• Sign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader Email

 

Resources:

• The Persist Network
• EP 134: Focus, Feel, Forward: Redefining Leadership for the Long Haul with Amanda Litman
• Janina Fisher
• Dr. Dan Siegel
• Stephen Porges, PhD
• Best Buddies International
• Stigma Fighters
• Made of Millions
• Francis Weller
• The Power of Exclusion | Tiffany Yu | TEDxBethesda
• Judith Heumann – Defying Obstacles in “Being Heumann” and “Crip Camp” | The Daily Show
• What My Bones Know, Stephanie Foo
• Benson Boone – Beautiful Things
• Severance
• Schitt’s Creek
• Oppenheimer
• Reading Rainbow
• Arthur
• Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood
• Shine Theory: Why Powerful Women Make the Greatest Friends
• The Problem with Positivity | Tiffany Yu | TEDxYouth@CaliforniaHighSchool

 

Transcript:

Tiffany Yu: I also know that grief and healing come in community as well. And so, while many of us may feel despair about the stripping away of our rights, I also know the power of collective action. You know, we have defaulted to a non-disabled world in so many ways that it may be a little bit of friction for us to incorporate the things that are needed. But ultimately, they will end up benefiting more people than you know.

[Inspirational Intro Music]

Rebecca Ching: We persist for what matters most, for the people we lead and the people we love. I know you do this day in and day out. But I’m recognizing persistence can start to feel like just another weight you carry, another demand that drains instead of drives. And the truth is, persistence without capacity isn’t resilience. It’s leading on fumes, and it quietly erodes our capacity and our integrity. 

I’m starting to identify how real persistence begins when we know what to focus on, what to release, and what truly matters without overcommitment or burning it all down. It’s a tough, nuanced dance that requires regular debriefs and reflection, and in today’s conversation, I talk with Tiffany Yu who’s a leader who offers a powerful reminder that persistence isn’t about doing it all right away or quitting when it’s too much. It’s about staying focused, constantly refining, and staying connected to supportive people and your vision.

I’m Rebecca Ching, and you’re listening to The Unburdened Leader, the show that goes deep with humans who navigate life’s challenges and lead in their own ways. Our goal is to address how they address the burdens they carry, how they learn from them and become better and more impactful leaders of themselves and others.

2:15

I’ve been thinking a lot about the word persist, especially as I drop this episode in the summer of 2025. It’s a word getting a lot of airtime, and for good reason. There’s so much calling us to hold the line right now, to keep going when things feel heavy and uncertain. And recently, a new effort launched by some thought leaders I deeply admire called The Persist Network is formed by some brilliant thought leaders who are helping cut through the noise, especially around politics and what’s true and what’s not out there with integrity, clarity, and a fierce commitment to the truth. And I feel so much resonance with their vision and also the name of their organization, The Persist Network. Right? Persist. There’s something grounding about it, something steady.

And of course, I can’t hear that word without thinking about that moment with senator Elizabeth Warren. You may remember it. She was pressing hard for legislation on the Senate floor (this was several years ago) when then majority leader Mitch McConnell tried to silence her. And when he was asked about it, he muttered the now famous words, “Nevertheless, she persisted.” And the phrase became a cultural touchstone, a meme, a T-shirt, a bumper sticker, a rallying cry, right? But what does persist really mean?

So, Oxford Language Dictionary, they define it as “to continue firmly or obstinately in a course of action in spite of difficulty or opposition.” Well, I’ll tell ya, just about everyone I know is doing some persisting, personally, professionally, you name it. And it sounds noble. But if I’m honest, right now that word, like so many good things, has the potential to feel like it’s carrying another weight.

4:14

So I want to just name that I guess because, let’s face it, people are tired. We’re tired. Many of us are balancing caregiving, leadership, advocacy, rest, and a constant firehose of urgent crises, right? So sure, persistence sounds good, but how do we actually do it without it becoming another burden?

So, for me, that question took me to my garden. Now, if you’ve been following along the podcast for a while, you might remember last year’s tomato saga. I planted 36 tomato plants. That’s not even everything else I planted. It was lush as it started off, it was beautiful, and it was way too much. I’d gone for style (I think I was stubborn in my vision in my mind) over strategy and some unsexy practices of gardening, and I ended up getting overwhelmed. And I think this serves as a visual metaphor for so many of our lives right now. Something initially looks good or sounds good and feels aligned but proves unsustainable. My garden became the boss of me, and I bailed on parts of it. I wanted to pull it all up. The garden became one more burden, and that felt crappy. I started to let judgy thoughts come and take hold and really impact my sense of, “Why am I doing this? And if I can’t do this, then I can’t do other things.” And yeah, that felt crappy, but again folks, right, this is the work. My garden became a trailhead.

So this year, I wanted to learn from last year, and I thought, “Okay, before I do this again, I don’t want my garden to be the boss of me, but I really want to continue with this practice.” So I scaled back but only by a dozen plants. That’s worth noting. I planted with more intention. I planned better. And even with that, things still got tangled.

6:05

I missed a couple watering days during a heatwave. I put off pruning. I mean, the plants just sprouted and exploded at one point, and I found myself staring, again, into a very familiar tomato jungle.

So this recent weekend, I was out there with my clippers and my shears, and I started pruning slowly, thoughtfully, and as I did, I began to notice how much my pruning practice has evolved. Years ago, I would rush it. I’d hack off things that didn’t need to go. I’d overcorrect or undercommit. I wasn’t thoughtful, and this time, I had the right tools, right? Some of you may know that you need to have the right kind of pruning shears. You need to make sure they’re sanitized and clean, so not to infect your plants. You know, I had space, I had planning, I had thought about it, but I also committed to why I was doing this. For me, I’ve been really working on honoring my commitments to myself, and I made a commitment to do this and stay connected to something that means a lot to me but not in a way that consumes me, right?

So pruning, I’m realizing, becomes a pillar of persistence and action. It’s presence and focus to stay present, to move what no longer serves, and to protect what still has life in it. And pruning is, you know, not a sexy practice at all. It often is what keeps us from burning out, walking away from our commitments or from letting something take over our lives.

And I recall what Amanda Litman said in my recent Unburdened Leader podcast conversation with her where she acknowledges that urge to burn it all down when we are despising what’s in front of us or feeling overwhelmed or not liking it anymore. When, in fact, she urged that it might just be taking things back to the studs may be what is needed instead. And that’s when my plants got pruned, some of them to the studs, and they’re already responding positively. But I want to take a moment to talk about that all-or-nothing part, that we often reckon with, for a moment. Some of us have parts that default to the extremes of either do it all or burn it all down or just accept that that’s the norm.

8:12

And I think this is more than just a personality quirk or a flaw. I think for a lot of us, it has roots in relational trauma. As a trauma therapist and trauma-informed leadership coach, I love the work of Janina Fisher, and she writes in one of her books that, “These polarities can emerge from early relational wounds we didn’t have the option to gradually adapt. We had to survive fast and hard.” Like, oh, my gosh. I really resonated with that.

Pruning, on the other hand, requires patience, space, a vision, and the ability to pace our work. And when you’ve lived through betrayal, emotional neglect, or abuse, space can feel threatening. It’s in those quiet moments when we’re alone with our bodies and thoughts that overwhelm can creep in. It’s why many of us keep adding things to our plates, to stay ahead of the noise by filling up our calendars even with good and important things. And neuroscience backed this up, right? Dan Siegel and Stephen Porges and some of their works, they talk about when our nervous systems get stuck in fight, flight, or freeze, persistence isn’t just hard, it’s physiologically inaccessible. And that’s why something as simple as cleaning out a cabinet, for example, can feel impossible.

Another chore I had this weekend was working on a big cabinet cleanout in our kitchen, and my husband and I were laughing as we tackled this project together. And my husband said, “Oh, this will take 30 minutes.” Knowing myself better I said two hours. He scoffed at me, but for the record, I was right. We’re always underestimating — or at least often underestimating how long things will take. One of my little phrases I say a lot is our eyes are bigger than our calendars.

10:01

But pruning invites us (again, you hear this theme) to slow down, to budget time, to make space. And that brings me to the deeper thread of today’s conversation because persistence isn’t something we do alone. It requires support, feedback, capacity, and it thrives in community, which is why I’m excited to bring in today’s guest, Tiffany Yu.

She is the founder of Diversibility and the author of The Ableist Manifesto. Tiffany’s story is a masterclass in persistence. She started small, she started scrappy, and over time, she built a global movement for disability visibility, equity, and justice. And what stood out to me in our conversation is how she didn’t just push through or give up when resistance showed up. She circled back. She revisited her vision. She stayed in relationship with mentors. She worked in community, and she leaned on her business savvy (which she has a lot of) and training to keep her mission sustainable. This is the kind of persistence I want all the leaders I work with to model, not just grinding but growing, not burning ourselves out but building in a way that leaves room for some joy, some breath, and some regeneration.

It’s especially meaningful to share this conversation today as this episode drops on the 35th anniversary of The Americans with Disabilities Act, otherwise known as The ADA. It’s a historic civil rights legislation championed by my former boss Senator Tom Harkin. I learned so much from him about principal leadership, equity, and staying the course, especially when the odds were steep. He was the master at doing things that we’re all like, “Why are you doing this? This is insurmountable,” and he proved us wrong every time.

So whether you’re pruning your garden or your to-do list or wondering if you have it in you to keep going, I hope this episode reminds you persistence doesn’t have to be loud or perfect, but it does need space, support, and a clear connection to your values.

12:03

All right, now let’s get into my conversation with Tiffany Yu.

—–

Rebecca Ching: Tiffany Yu, welcome to The Unburdened Leader podcast! I was just saying, before we hit record, how long I’ve wanted you on this show, so when you agreed to come on, I was particularly overjoyed. So thank you for making the time to be here. I’m so looking forward to our conversation today.

Tiffany Yu: Me too! Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me to come on.

Rebecca Ching: All right, it was really hard to focus the questions I wanted to ask you, but I want to start with going back to when you were a student at Georgetown (and you wrote about this in your book), you had applied for a grant to help fund what would be the first student-run disability club at your school. And during the interview process for the grant, one of the members of the selection committee asked you, “How are you gonna get people to care about disabled people?” I’d love for you to share what you felt in that moment when you got asked that question.

Tiffany Yu: Mm, I will also share that that is not a question that’s gone away, which is why that chapter in the book “Why You Should Care About Disability” I wanted to make sure was in there. But if I rewind back to 21-year-old Tiffany hearing that, I’d actually put together an entire presentation, and I remember the last slide of the presentation had these little angels on them that I had seen on some wrapping paper, and it said, “Will you Reimagine Georgetown Grant Committee be my angels to turn this into a reality?” I don’t know, you know what? I think in full transparency, that was messaging that I had internalized after becoming disabled. So it didn’t feel as sad as it sounds when you say it out loud. And I wrote about this in the book.

14:00

This is something that I care about, and my undergrad is in business. I was studying business, and a huge part of creating a business is product-market fit, right? So part of the idea was can we get just a little bit of funding to at least just host one event, and if no one shows up then at least we know, right? Thankfully, people did show up, because if no one had showed up then I think it would have continued to reinforce that negative messaging or that negative narrative that this is a community that we have to fight for people to care about this fight being a part of our overall shared humanity.

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, it’s interesting because the question to me didn’t sound sad. I mean, it was kind of like so presumptuous, but also it’s like this harsh honesty, like, the reality of it. At the same time, it’s kind of rude and disrespectful. And so, for you, it was more of the same. And I’m curious, how did you move forward and how did that moment and even that experience with that group, how did that help you move forward in helping people care about disabled people?

Tiffany Yu: So we received $500, and as part of this Reimagine Georgetown grant — so Georgetown is where I went to school, and so, it was called “Apply for a Reimagine Georgetown Grant,” and some of the other grant recipients at the time, I think there was one around putting up some holiday lights in one of the squares in one of the dorm areas. There was a huge range of what the projects could have looked like.

So we received $500, and I will say that $500, depending on who you are, is a lot or a little. And for 21-year-old Tiffany, who just had this aspect of her identity that not only she felt a lot of shame around at that particular point in time, but she also didn’t know if anyone was gonna care. And so, it was less so about receiving the money and more so about a vote of confidence in me and a community that is far too often dismissed.

16:16

The market isn’t seen as big enough. A billion people seems like a lot of people to me, or we’re seen as too niche when, again, one in six or one in seven people globally have a disability. That doesn’t seem niche to me. That’s on par with the size of the population of China.

And so, we received that $500, and that was the beginning of what I want to call the Diversibility Working Group. So I don’t feel like we had enough people at that time to actually formally start a club, and most of the people who had expressed support of the formation of this disability student club were actually professors who had taught disability history or disability studies, staff members, even some people from neighboring universities. Because the original impetus for all of this was coming into my senior year of university, I had already cofounded a Taiwanese American club, and I was coming off of a summer internship at Goldman Sachs. And while I was at Goldman, I got introduced to their communities for Asian employees, women employees, and disabled employees, and their allies.

And at Georgetown, at that point in time, I’d already been part of a lot of women’s clubs. I had my Taiwanese club, and actually, all of the Asian American clubs at Georgetown, we had a group called CollaborAsian, and there were eleven different clubs. So I was deeply entrenched in those, but I wasn’t a part of a disability club because Georgetown didn’t have one. But here I was now at an investment bank where they had a group for disabled employees, and it gave me a chance as the most junior, in a very, very junior role, I’m a summer intern, to network and expand outside of my direct department to meet senior people at this bank who were champions of this group.

18:18

So when I came back to Georgetown, I said, “I know how to start student clubs, and I just saw the potential of how amazing it is to be a part of a disability employee resource group at this company that I interned at. Let me explore what it would look like to build that student club.” And this was before the Reimagine Georgetown. I just want to rewind for a little bit more context.

Rebecca Ching: Sure.

Tiffany Yu: So I knew two other disabled students at Georgetown at that particular point in time, so I sent them an email. I said, “Hey, I’m thinking about starting this disability student club. Would you be interested in being part of the formation of it? Because a club and a community isn’t just one person.” I will share that I didn’t get a response from either of them. You know, it could be email overwhelm, which as university students, we’re just getting emails. But sometimes a no response is an answer in itself.

Rebecca Ching: Absolutely.

Tiffany Yu: So I started seeding the idea around to other people, and someone on the Georgetown staff heard about this idea. He said, “Tiffany, this is a great idea. I know someone else on the Georgetown staff who’s very passionate about disability inclusion. Let me introduce you.”

So I met with her, this person on the Georgetown staff, and she goes, “I love this idea. I love the passion and energy behind it. But I think this is too radical for Georgetown. I don’t think Georgetown’s ready yet.” And I don’t know what was radical about it or what they weren’t ready for, but I kind of took that as strike one and strike two. So I was like, “You know what? I just need one more strike, and if I get one more strike, at least I tried.” I had talked about this idea with as many people as I could, and the people who I thought would want to be part of the club, I hadn’t heard from them.

So, as I was waiting for strike three, I ended up getting invited to speak on a student panel as part of a disability studies certificate that Georgetown was exploring.

20:09

So it was a half-day conference where they brought together all the DC area schools, and they had all these different panels. And I was on the student panel with the president of Best Buddies, which is a nonprofit that is focused on creating one-to-one friendships with people who have intellectual disabilities. Where Diversibility is a little bit different — and I was actively involved in Best Buddies when I was in high school — is it creates a power dynamic in the relationship to say, “I’m the one who doesn’t have the intellectual disability, and I’m being your friend,” right?

Rebecca Ching: Yeah.

Tiffany Yu: And I was like I just want to have friends and be friends in an equitably peer-to-peer where no one is better than the other. I don’t know.

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, there is a power or an infantilizing of some in that dynamic too, for sure.

Tiffany Yu: Yes. Well, and I will say, and I will also acknowledge that for the people who are a part of the Best Buddies program, it is transformative and life changing for them, and I don’t want to take that experience away from them.

Rebecca Ching: Absolutely.

Tiffany Yu: So if they’re serving a value, I welcome it and also acknowledge that we have different pathways towards inclusion and hopefully all of our movements together create some massive progress or incremental progress.

So I spoke on this panel with the president of Best Buddies, and then the other person was one of the two disabled students I’d reached out to who hadn’t emailed me back, and then I was on the panel. And that was the first time that I actually shared my disability origin story or my first disability origin story of becoming disabled in a car accident for the first time publicly, and it was also the first time that I’d gotten invited to speak on a disability panel. And so, I felt like I needed to share that story to provide some context, and I also do tell people that we don’t have to share everything but just share enough that it provides context in whatever conversation you’re in.

22:08

So at the end of the conversation, at the end of this panel I said, “I don’t actually think it’s gonna happen, but I had this idea to start a disability student club here at Georgetown, so I’m just putting the idea out there that I did reach out to a couple of people and talk to some people on the Georgetown staff, and it just sounds like we don’t really have the infrastructure set up to make this into a reality. And so, I remember this student from Gallaudet was like, “I’m gonna be a part of your club,” and then she handed me a sheet of paper that said “diversibility” on it. So a student from Gallaudet, staff members, faculty were all part of this working group.

Rebecca Ching: And just for context, Gallaudet is a university for folks who sign predominantly as the way they communicate and have some kind of hearing impairment, so it’s just a really special, special community in the DC area. So I just wanted to give context to that.

Tiffany Yu: Yes, thank you. But I wanted to provide all of that context because up until this applying for the $500 grant, I wouldn’t have applied if I didn’t already have this working group kind of put together because I kind of needed at least just one other person to believe in this idea for me to go out and submit an application for the Reimagine Georgetown Grant.

So we used that money to host our launch event, but the goal of Diversibility at Georgetown ultimately was can we become a university-recognized club. You have to be in existence for a certain amount of time and reach certain milestones in order to do that. And Diversibility at Georgetown did reach that. I had already graduated by that time. But we have essentially accomplished the goal of what we wanted.

Rebecca Ching: It’s got me thinking because my daughter was starting some clubs at school this year, and they kind of, you know, fizzled and they struggled with it. You really went into this with some really good business strategy about market research and testing it, and I think it’s like you have a great idea, but we’ve got to figure out relationship building. How do you start? And I’m just appreciating that, so thank you for sharing some of that origin story of Diversibility and your own experience at Georgetown.

24:23

Super side note, though, my husband is an educator, and he was brought onto a committee because my husband, he’s now an administrator, but he taught for 25 years, and Georgetown kept seeing students from his class go to the school that were not part of dominant culture. And so, they had this whole committee that they met from 2020 to 2022 with teachers around the country going, “How can we make Georgetown less like it is now? How can we make it a little bit more representative of the world?” So I thought that’s interesting that you brought that up too.

Tiffany Yu: I just came back from my 15-year college reunion.

Rebecca Ching: Dang!

Tiffany Yu: And I got to visit the Disability Cultural Center for the first time, which didn’t exist when I was a student. There’s a Disability Studies minor that didn’t exist when I was a student. Diversibility kind of fizzled in 2014 but re-emerged in 2019 as a new student group called The Georgetown Disability Alliance. And so, in some ways, I feel proud to be part of a legacy of elevating disability culture and disability justice at this university that we can only hope that it continues to get better. 

Rebecca Ching: I think that’s a really positive framework, as frustrating as it can be to hear things said or see the pace of things. Change is slow, especially if you want sustained change, you know, those seed-planting pieces. So I love that! I love that legacy piece that you have at your alma mater.

I want to shift a little bit to talk about something that I’ve been paying a lot of attention to in my work for over two decades, and I feel like it intersects with your work profoundly, that we’re living in this time where optimizing every aspect of health and wellbeing is being treated almost like a moral imperative. There’s moral meaning around so much about our bodies and our health, and when bodies and lives that don’t fit this ideal are often — they end up being seen as less than or less worthy. And it’s subtle, and it’s also blatant and everything in between right now, and it’s become normalized.

26:28

And it’s very disconcerting. I’m curious, just personally, how has this tendency to equate optimized health with worth shaped how you see yourself?

Tiffany Yu: If I think about the definition that I use of ableism, I’ll share kind of my definition and then a simplified version of it, which is how I’ll refer to it going forward. But the definition I use is that ableism is a system of oppression that devalues someone based on the way their body and their mind works. I like that longer definition because things about the ways that we devalue women’s bodies or we have devalued bodies of color, right, which shows how different systems of oppression kind of intersect with each other. But for the purposes of this conversation, we’ll just talk about ableism as the devaluing of disabled bodies and disabled minds.

This is the whole reason why I wrote my book, right, The Anti-Ableist Manifesto. I wrote this book for a reader who either may be newer on their disability journey whether you have a disability or not. Actually, when I first started promoting the book I would say, “Oh, I actually wrote this book for someone who was non-disabled,” but I have found that many people who are disabled who are newer in their anti-ableist journey are getting a lot of value out of the book too. So that’s why I say the key reader is you’re newer to your disability journey, you’re looking for a primer.

And it’s only a paragraph, but the paragraph talks about this concept of disability pride. And your question was around how am I reckoning with this overt devaluing of disabled bodies and disabled minds, and really the way that disabled people combat that is through what’s known as disability pride or disabled joy. They’re not interchangeable, and  maybe I’ll have to do more research about the intersection, but I’ll share my definition of what I think they are.

28:25

Disability pride, to me, in non-PC terms, is kind of like a middle finger to ableism. It says, “I am asserting my worth and my value because I exist, because I’m a human.” And essentially my longer version of disability pride is asserting my value and worth in a society that reminds me that I should feel shame about who I am. Disabled joy, to me, is how can people celebrate the wholeness of who I am and not just show up when I am experiencing trauma or something challenging or a barrier, which is where I think the most viral parts of our narrative show up, right?

Rebecca Ching: Yeah.

Tiffany Yu: Trying to navigate in disabled bodies in an ableist society, like can I wear bright colors and loud statement earrings and red lipstick and be seen and embraced in all of that. And I don’t know if this made its way into the tone of the book, but I have something I call PFJ (play, fun, joy), and this is part of because of my own disability origin story where I talk about these multiple layers of grief that I experienced. I experienced my dad passing away in the car accident, which is the type of death grief that most of us understand grief to be.

Rebecca Ching: Right.

Tiffany Yu: I have grief in terms of disability grief, or Jayne Mattingly calls it body grief where you are grieving how your body used to be, and now it’s different and it’s operating in a different way.

30:05

And then there’s a third grief that maybe is where some future Tiffany might do some work, which is childhood trauma and the loss of childhood innocence and the grief we don’t make space for when a child can no longer be a child anymore. And my journey toward exploring disabled joy and PFJ (play, fun, joy) came through wanting to reconnect and find some semblance of that childhood innocence in that little girl and how can she honor who she was?

Rebecca Ching: As someone who specializes in my clinical work with trauma, I’m just curious, too, how you’ve moved through that kind of compounded grief of losing your father and also the permanent injury that you sustain and how — because we talk about healing. With grief, we’ve got to move through it. It’s like no, there’s always grief. It’s like we’ve got to redefine our relationship with grief. How have you moved through even the loss of your father, the loss of your childhood innocence, and losing function with a part of your body? Has that been complicated for you? Yeah, because it’s like they’re all, to me, intertwined. We can’t just separate them. How has healing and growing and moving through that, whether it’s one or the other, how has that benefitted you in the process?

Tiffany Yu: Two things come to mind, which is it wasn’t until, I want to say, 2015 or 2016 where I had someone else tell me that the car accident was trauma.

Rebecca Ching: Oh.

Tiffany Yu: And I didn’t use that language to describe the car accident up until that point.

Rebecca Ching: Wow.

Tiffany Yu: And if someone had told me that that was traumatic, I think in my brain I would have processed it as, “Oh, if you experience trauma, there’s a trauma recovery process that you go through,” right?

32:11

And so, here I am 20 years after the accident now having someone else — her name’s Sarah. She runs a nonprofit called Stigma Fighters. And she does a lot of work around living with mental illness and mental health, and to me, the fact that an expert in that space named it that way and I wasn’t even using that language, that felt kind of like a watershed moment. Even the first three months of therapy was 2017. It was actually about a trauma that I had, something traumatic I experienced in 2016 because I had believed that outdated adage that time heals all wounds. And I actually was part of a campaign from another mental health nonprofit called Made of Millions where I remember my statement was, “Time plus a lot of work heals some wounds.”

All of that to say, you know, for the first 10+ years after I became disabled, I didn’t give voice and space to the car accident, my dad passing away, and I tried to anchor to a non-disabled body. I have memories of walking my high school graduation, so I’m 18 years old, and I’m still shaking hands with my right hand, which is my paralyzed arm, or attempting to.

Rebecca Ching: Oh, wow.

Tiffany Yu: And I have this vivid memory, because when you graduate, or at least at my high school graduation, you have to go down the line and shake everyone’s hand. And so, my hand looks different. It has very limited muscle function. There’s no way — essentially it was just a person grabbing a limb. And there was some shift in college where I decided I don’t feel like a right-handed handshake on my disabled arm is a good representation if that’s your first — it was like, “Oh, everyone shakes their hands with their right hand, so I’m gonna shake my hand with my right hand.”

34:09

And I wonder if that was, even before I became an advocate, part of my unlearning was, “Okay, I’m trying to shake your hand with my right hand, and I don’t feel confident or empowered in it. But I do have a very strong left hand, and so, I switched to being a left-handed hand shaker.”

But yeah, I think to your question around that healing journey, I think for that first ten years I didn’t have language to explain what had happened, and I didn’t feel like I had permission or had internalized that that story should be one that should be shared. And I actually think not sharing and sitting in my grief or moving through it, whatever language you use, I actually think that’s what exacerbated what ultimately became PTSD. And I don’t understand that fully, but I also know that I didn’t let myself go through whatever that stress response cycle was.

So I do feel a little bit delayed in my healing journey. But I came across this quote, actually, during the pandemic, and it said, “The work of a mature person is to carry grief in one hand and gratitude in the other and to be stretched large by them. How much sorrow can I hold? That’s how much gratitude I can give.”

Rebecca Ching: Dang.

Tiffany Yu: That’s from Francis Weller. And when I heard that quote, that was another [mind-blowing sound] for me because I felt like the only place I could sit was in my grief, and I guess that’s why I talked about disabled joy on this podcast and in this conversation because I didn’t give myself space to experience joy because I thought the only place I could be was in that grief, and it was so much for a nine-year-old person. Sometimes I’ll see photos of her, or I’ll watch an old video.

36:02

My first TEDx talk is like a 10-minute version that goes into details around the car accident, and it’s called “The Power of Exclusion.” Sometimes when I see that video I cry, and I’m like, “Wait, that person is me, and why is it that a kid –.” You know, and sometimes kids go through unimaginable things, but I also look back at that period of time, and I have no regrets because I’ve become the person who I am.

But I do wonder what if someone had asked me how I was? I had people who picked and prodded at my body, and I was a minor then, so I also have compassion toward not understanding what was going on, but I felt like I had no agency over what was happening to my body, and no one really addressed the emotional components of not only what it’s like to experience a fatal car accident like that where someone did pass away but the physical kind of ramifications of it afterward.

But I will share something really fascinating that happened was a pediatric hand doctor who works with kids who have my injury saw my TEDx Talk, and because he saw my TEDx Talk, he has now added a mental health professional to their rehabilitation team. So you have your pediatric hand surgeon. There’s a neurosurgeon you work with, elbow, shoulder. I mean, there are so many different parts to this injury, an occupational therapist, physical therapist, and now a mental health professional. And that felt like a win. And even with this book out, The Anti-Ableist Manifesto, I recently just had a bookstore tag me and they said, “Because of you and your work and your book, we’re actually making the process for disabled readers who want to come to our events so much more seamless. They just give us a heads up. We tell them they can come early. We make sure seats are available.” If they’re a wheelchair user, they have space for them, and a seat for their companion or if they’re coming with their friends.

38:10

And so, we’re starting to see these trickle effects, right? And this is the whole dream where I’m not a bookstore owner and I’m not a doctor. But now there’s someone who accessed this work and can make change in the spaces that they’re in that will have a lasting impact on everyone else who impacts those spaces as well. I know that didn’t actually answer your question about healing. I like to say I’m a human.

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, it did!

Tiffany Yu: [Laughs] Oh, okay.

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, it did because I’m just seeing the thread. At least this is what I’m hearing is the generative impact of you doing the work has been healing too to see how a bookstore owner or a doctor who specializes in hand injuries, right, how they’re impacted by you sharing your story. That is healing. And I’m also just struck at, again, the reminder of how we can focus so much on the visible wounds but not ask about the wounds we can’t see, right?

Tiffany Yu: Yes.

Rebecca Ching: The grief, the loss of your father, the experience of a traumatic car accident in addition to the injuries you sustained physically. And then I’m also thinking this has been such a conversation with so many people for us. We just told our daughter that she’s autistic early on because we wanted to start to teach her how to have consent over what she wanted or didn’t want. It just felt along with our values, but not every family or parents feels the same way, and they have their reasons for it too. But we came into rubs because there was a lot of secrecy and silence around disabilities that are not as obvious. And sometimes they are but they take a little minute to sense or to experience.

So I think this is such a good reminder for us to stay in curiosity, too, in what we’re focusing on and why we’re focusing on. What does healing look like too. So thank you, and I’m glad you brought up that story from the end of your book because I had to cut that question, and you just slipped it all in! [Laughs]

40:05

All right, so speaking of your book, let me give it a proper shoutout because it’s The Anti-Ableist Manifesto: Smashing Stereotypes, Forging Change, and Building a Disability-Inclusive World. And you add this really sweet story where you reference a conversation between the late author and the amazing, treasured Disability Rights Activist Judith Heumann with Trevor Noah, and he used a term able-bodied, which is a term I’ve used a lot. And she quickly replied in her way, and anyone who’s familiar with her work, it’s just very, very Judy. But she’s like, “I call you non-disabled because the likelihood of you acquiring a disability, temporarily or permanently, is statistically very high.” In a world that’s constantly running away from that and fighting it and investing thousands and thousands of dollars to try and optimize, or when there is any kind of illness or changes in our abilities, how we respond to that. It feels very burdened to me.

So I’d love for you to share what are the stakes for all of us to realize this truth of what Judith reflected back to Trevor?

Tiffany Yu: I think about this a lot around our conversation around why we should care about disability, and Judy’s right, and I have this statement in my book where I say something along the lines of if we are to live the beautiful, full extent of our lives, we will all join the disability community. And that’s not to fear people into caring, but like Judy said, it’s statistically very high. And part of that is hopefully to light that fire to say, “If we continue to prioritize access, when we become disabled, we won’t experience as many barriers as those of us who came before us did.”

42:04

Being disabled, to me, it’s so much easier to find community now than I felt like it was 16 years ago. You can search for a hashtag and find people. I’m still a fan of Facebook groups because their search features and the amount of groups that are available on there is very robust. And so, I also share that when we become part of the disability community, we will have a community there who is ready to welcome us and hopefully be with us along that journey too.

I also share something in the book too where if we look at different products that have been designed by, for, and with the disability community, ranging from, I don’t know, the touch pad on our keyboards or typewriters, which then became the keyboard, electric toothbrushes, speech-to-text technology, audiobooks, elevators, these are all things that were inspired by the disability community that the rest of us kind of benefit from. So if we are benefiting from the accessibility that the disability community paved the way for, I hope we can also join in that fight to make things more accessible.

And even kind of look at the example of autocaptioning tools on social media. Yes, of course, you want to make sure you double check them, but the fact that that feature is now on every single major social media platform showcases — and they probably did the research too. There’s a high percentage of people who will watch videos with the sound off, so the captions are just important there, and creators who don’t have disabilities or may not know if they have users who are d/Deaf or hard of hearing are adding the captions because they know not only does this benefit the d/Deaf and hard of hearing community, but someone who’s on the subway or public transit and maybe forgot their headphones and is flipping through TikTok or whatever platform they’re on.

44:27

So if we didn’t choose this last part of the book title, which is “How to Build a Disability-Inclusive World,” it would have said something like, “How to Build an Accessibility-First Culture,” because accessibility, to me, means that I can show up at a space and not have to ask for permission to show up.

Rebecca Ching: Oh. Yeah.

Tiffany Yu: And I share this story in the book (and I have a couple stories like this too) where I went to a conference and they had a morning bike activity. So I just sent them a note saying, “Hey, just a heads up, I bike with one hand. If you can have a bike — and here’s how tall I am because I need a smaller-sized bike, if possible. If you can make sure that the left-hand brake goes to the back wheel, I’d really appreciate it!” And then I show up that morning, and I say, “Oh, I’m Tiffany. Just checking in!” And the person who was there was like, “Oh, we have your bike ready for you,” right? And that’s it, and then I went biking with everyone, versus (and this was another story that was shared in the book) all my friends went to a pottery class, and I asked my friend, “Hey, do you know –,” because I think it was the one where you have to spin the wheel. And so, I said, “Hey, do you know if they can accommodate someone who can only use one arm?” And my friend wasn’t sure, and I didn’t want to put that burden on them, so I reached directly to the pottery studio, and I didn’t hear back from them. And again, maybe they’re overwhelmed, but silence is also an answer. So I decided just to opt out, but it also meant I’m opting out of trying something new that I was really excited about and also hanging out with my friends. And those are just small examples, but I also just wanted to highlight that.

46:00

It’s interesting, oftentimes when we ask the question — you know, we’ll ask an interactive question like, “Hey, can you name some things or some tools or some technology or products that were designed for, by, or with the disability community?” And people will say things like elevators or a wheelchair. They’ll mainly just think about kind of the more obvious accessibility. But we also have lives outside of needing to get into a building. Getting into a building is the first part, you know? Recreationally, what about going to a concert? What about going to a pottery class, going biking? I think we focus too much, I think — and this is where your ideas around, or this conversation around optimizing everything and high productivity, it’s focused too much on utility and not the wholeness of who we are as individuals.

[Inspirational Music]

Rebecca Ching: Leading is hard. It’s also often controversial as you navigate staying aligned to your values, your mission, your boundaries. Navigating the inevitable controversy can challenge your confidence and clarity and calm. Now, I know you don’t mind making the hard decisions, but sometimes the stakes seem higher and can bring up echoes of old doubts and insecurities during times when you need to feel rock solid on your plan and action.

Finding a coach who gets the nuances of your business and leading in our complex and polarized world can help you identify the blocks that can keep you playing it safe and small. Leading today is not a fancy title or fluffy bragging rights. It is simply brave and bold work to stay the course when the future’s so unknown and the doubts and pains from the past keep showing up to shake things up. Internal emotional practices and systemic strategies are needed to keep the protector of cynicism at bay and foster a hope that is actionable and aligned.

So when the stakes are high and you don’t want to lose focus, when you want to navigate inevitable conflict between your ears and with those you lead, when time is of the essence and you want to make hard decisions with confidence and clarity, then Unburdened Leader Coaching is for you and where you deepen the capacity to tolerate the vulnerability of change, innovation, and doing things differently than you were taught.

To start your Unburdened Leader Coaching process with me go to www.rebeccaching.com and book a free connection call. I can’t wait to hear from you!

[Inspirational Music]

48:53

Rebecca Ching: For the leaders that are listening, is there one thing that you would say, “Hey, think about this”? Because I know you were talking about the bike example, like when people are doing special team-building moments or retreats or not just that but stuff in their day-to-day life. What are some things that people can just think about to be better connectors and better bridge-builders as they’re creating spaces, whether it’s having people over for a meal or creating an event?

Tiffany Yu: I actually do think about one team-building exercise that I had where — and I was younger. I think this is mainly for the student-age or kids, but you had to grab other people’s hands and then untangle yourself. I don’t know if you remember that one.

Rebecca Ching: Oh, yeah.

Tiffany Yu: And this is before — because my first sharing of the car accident publicly was when I was 21. So I participated in these things, and I put my hand in, and my hand looks different, and no one wanted to grab my hand, right? So here I was trying to participate in this team-building ice-breaker activity, and I felt uncomfortable, and everyone else felt uncomfortable too.

50:03

And so, I actually just think having this invitation — you know, and I think I include a couple of these scripts in the book where if you are someone who is leading a visualization or something, sharing, “Close your eyes if that feels comfortable to you,” you know, because some people may need to keep their eyes open to engage with the facilitator or, “Raise your hand if you’re able to.” That small invitation of acknowledgement that some people might not be able to and that’s okay.

I mean, I love the question, “Do you have what you need to fully participate?” or if you’re someone who’s facilitating something and you haven’t been able to have that one on one with people or ask that in the registration, just saying, “Participate in a way that works best for you in this activity.” And I think just leading up front with that helps create an environment where people know that if they have different access needs they can bring that up, or they can decide to opt out and it won’t be seen as a — people won’t be making assumptions about why not.

Rebecca Ching: Thank you for naming all of that because you write about why we need to ask better questions and how we ask questions, and there are some tactical parts to that, that you just touched on too. Are there any other strategies that you would recommend just so we can ask better questions of disabled people and how we talk about disabilities? Any other strategies that you regularly offer?

Tiffany Yu: I think the first is just naming if you might be newer to talking about disability. I’m a big fan of just saying, “Hey, I haven’t been in this situation before. Thank you for sharing,” whatever the person did end up sharing. “Is there anything that we can do to help co-create and make this a more comfortable environment for you?” And then I just really like the statement, “Let me know if you need anything.” And actually that’s just a  broader statement that I think works in all areas, but this has been a semi-contentious point within the disability community around asking for assistance.

52:17

Originally, and actually I wrote this in the book, I had a three-step process, which is: you ask the person if they need assistance; step two: listen to the answer if it’s yes or no, and if the answer is yes, then ask specifically how you can help. And if it’s an unsolicited question, then that disabled person who may have an apparent disability who gets offered help way more than they would like, ends up being a microaggression for them. So, “Let me know if you need anything,” is a statement where if you are offering that to a newer person or a stranger who you may think might need some assistance, they can choose whether to engage with you or not.

And these are all scripts, and I never want to feed words into people for what they should say, so figure out what version of that may feel like in your own language as well. But part of it is the pattern interruption of we have defaulted to a non-disabled world in so many ways that it is gonna take — it may be a little bit of friction for us to incorporate the things that are needed. But ultimately, they will end up benefitting more people then you know. There’s so much more media out now that makes me really excited about the shifting narrative that’s happening in that space and the role that media plays in terms of how people view disability.

What’s so interesting is so much of the conversation that we’re having right now is about conversationally how we interact with people, and what’s so fascinating is I spent a lot of time — part two is really around common microaggressions that disabled people experience, and how we can interrupt them.

54:01

But as you mentioned in the outset of our conversation, we’re seeing pretty overt devaluing of disabled bodies and disabled minds by people in power, people in leadership as well. And I guess in some ways I bring that up because I find it ironic because microaggressions are kind of where the more overt ableism becomes okay, and in some ways some of what’s happening now in our current climate is the most overt. It’s the stripping away of rights right in front of us, of healthcare, of access to education, and it’s fascinating because I wrote this book when that wasn’t happening. But in some ways, I wrote this book in a way that the book is still as timely now, maybe more urgent now, than it was before.

Rebecca Ching: Well, this leads to my next question. And I think of you and so many people that I know a lot that are in the space that you are, but our conversation’s gonna be dropping on the 35th anniversary of the passage of The Americans with Disabilities Act and the first anniversary of your book drop-ish, in that area, which this is really profound for me because my first job out of college was working for Senator Tom Harkin who introduced this legislation, or co-introduced it. And I learned so much and had to unlearn so much from that time. You know, it had a profound impact on me, and little did I know the impact that the ADA and the IDEA would have on my own family.

But I want to just go back to last year because there was a big celebration at the White House for the 34th anniversary, and you were with tons of Disability Rights Activists and just the pictures I saw were amazing. And I’d love for you to share what went through your mind during that event. You kind of touched on it a little bit, but what feels different today, almost a year later after that event?

Tiffany Yu: And I will say, I got to meet Senator Harkin in December of last year —

Rebecca Ching: Yeah.

56:05

Tiffany Yu: — and sign a copy of my book to him and also tell him that he’s mentioned in the book. And to meet someone who was so instrumental in using his power and privilege to create more equity for our community, that was really meaningful. That was probably one of the highlights. That has been one of the highlights of this book coming out is getting to meet the people who are featured in it who were part of history and telling them that I got to recognize them in this way.

But being at that event last year, I mean, anytime I’m in community with other disabled people, it feels like home. And this is something I’m grateful for for having started to build a disability community back in 2009 is I remember the first time you ever go to an event, and you’re the only person there, you don’t know anyone. And I’m a big believer that frequency creates familiarity creates connection and community. That event felt like a culmination of 15 years of building community, getting entrenched in learning more about other people’s perspectives, and I hope that my book is a celebration of that too. I think there are over 500 citations in the book, and I can’t remember how many people I interviewed. I reached out to over 100 people to see if I could have their story featured, and we couldn’t put everyone in, but I wanted this book — there are people who are disabled who have not experienced the type of grief I have and that I’m still healing through. And I wanted to make sure that the voice is still mine but that some of the stories that were shared shared other perspectives of how it was to exist in a disabled body or a chronically-ill body or exist and live with a disabled mind.

58:00

This is why I come back to disabled joy. Every couple of months, or I think I had a string where I was doing it every month, I would share “March Moments of Disabled Joy,” and it was moments where I got to see other members of our community really shining bright, and it’s still happening, and I’ve never been a fan of despite language because it seems to erase whatever’s happening now, but I even look at — and this may be the optimist in me. I saw something online around the stripping away of some ADA requirements to be more business-friendly, and I saw someone write about it, and they said, “Well, the ADA has always been the floor, not the ceiling.” So even if you try to take things away, it was never meant to be the end all be all. There’s so much progress.

And even with the ADA, it’s turning 35 this year. I sat in on a conversation with a policy expert, and I’ve learned so many things. Right now, the onus of the implementation of the ADA is on disabled people, and so, there still are limitations to this legislation that we’re all celebrating. What would it look like if we can hold organizations and businesses more accountable as well?

I also know that grief and healing come in community as well, and so, while many of us may feel despair about the stripping away of our rights, I also know the power of collective action. Let’s remember we are humans first. Me being a disabled person does not make me any less of a person, whether you call me a person with a disability or a disabled person. I think we’ve spent too much time focused on the moral imperative and the human rights and civil rights, which are all deeply important.

1:00:18

But there is data out now that talks about the business of disability inclusion. There’s market research that shows discretionary income that our community and our friends and family have and the business case for disability employment. And I’m hoping that we can combine some of that in our messaging too so then it lands with everyone.

And so, I also think about knowing who my audience is, and one of the things that this policy expert said was she said, “We have to take the politics out of policy.” And I’m not an expert in that space, and I do want to learn more about, yes, it’s a milestone year for the ADA, but also I didn’t know that the ADA existed until 2015.

Rebecca Ching: Oh wow.

Tiffany Yu: And I say that kind of embarrassingly. And what was interesting was I remember a couple years ago I was doing a presentation, and it was to celebrate, at this point in time, the 30th anniversary of the ADA, and I asked people on the call, and maybe I said it too quickly, but I said, “Let’s put ADA in the chat so we can celebrate it.” And a lot of people just put the number 88. So even at that — but, you know, if you say it quickly, maybe it’s 88. And I see laughing but I also just want to acknowledge that we have —

Rebecca Ching: I was just thinking — go ahead.

Tiffany Yu: We haven’t popularized the ADA enough.

Rebecca Ching: No.

Tiffany Yu: In some ways, it’s still in our disability echo chamber, right?

Rebecca Ching: The bubble.

Tiffany Yu: Talk about diversifying your feed and getting out of that echo chamber, learning to me is never about shame, but even just that idea of putting the number 88 in the chat because that’s how you heard it means that it’s not in the consciousness enough that people know that this is a landmark piece of legislation not only within our community but creating accessibility for everybody more broadly.

1:02:12

Rebecca Ching: Yeah. That’s well said, and I guess I’m still kind of in my head churning on taking the politics out of policy. I’m really of the mindset that we need to kind of redefine politics. Politics is caring for people. I mean, if politics is about caring for people, why does that have to be — how do we make that more neutral, more just benign, thinking about caring for people. I mean, maybe that’s my pipe dream because, yeah, it is political, caring for people. Policy is political, so I don’t know, for me, my brain just kind of fritzes on that a little bit.

Tiffany Yu: I will say our existence has been politicized.

Rebecca Ching: Yeah!

Tiffany Yu: And yes, there’s a moral imperative. Yes, there’s a human right imperative, a civil rights imperative, and yes, there’s an economic imperative and a business imperative. We are one in four in the US, one in six or seven globally. This is not niche. This is mainstream. But I will say, I have some potentially — I had a call earlier today that made me feel hopeful that my book and my work are getting into places I never thought they could. And I think in the polarized environment that we are in, I want business leaders to have this book. I want our political leaders to have them. I hope — and I remember this one review I had that said, “This seems like a must-read for humanity-type of book,” and I come back to it.

And I will say, even throughout the book process, I remember going to an event, and I wanted to gift a copy of the book to the host, and he looked at the cover and he looked at the title and he said, “You know, I really appreciate the kind gesture, but I’m probably not gonna read that book,” and to kind of close the conversation around caring that I have had to come to learn is that I am not gonna reach everyone. My message is not gonna resonate with everyone. But for the people who my message does resonate with, how can I be in community with them and they have access to people that I may not have?

1:04:21

I’ll give you a little teaser because I don’t think I can share that much. But one of the conversations I had earlier today was with someone who is in the government somewhere and has read my book, and they had a conversation with someone who I believed is not the biggest champion of disability inclusion but who, then, got to learn more about my work. Again, it kind of shows me I did not have direct access to said person, but that person had influence in spaces that I didn’t have access to. I guess I come back to even the bookstore owner. I come back to this person who’s in this government job. Where are the places that you have your spears of influence, if you have engaged in and resonated with this work in any way, that you can bring this book to?

One other note that I received from someone who read my book is they said, “Tiffany, my therapist and I thank you for this because I’m newer on my disability journey, and we’re actually working through the reflection questions together.” And so, not only is this disabled person who read my book learning a lot, her therapist is now potentially becoming more informed about how to be more disability-informed or we call it culturally sensitive when working with people who are in our community as well.

Rebecca Ching: Well, I just want to give you a lot of credit because there are many things I loved about your book. I mean, obviously, it’s something that’s personal to me in kind of multi-dimensional ways. But you really do approach this in a bridge-building way and your compassion but also your clarity and calling folks in for conviction is a beautiful — it’s accessible for folks who are very probably protected or, because of their abilities, not interested or not tuned into this.

1:06:14

So it is a real bridge-building book, and it’s really informative. And you tell a lot of great stories. So it is definitely an important book for everyone to have on their bookshelf.

A couple things as we wrap up our time. I ask all my guests this: how do you define leadership, and how has that definition evolved from what you were taught growing up?

Tiffany Yu: A leader to me is someone who empowers others to find their own voice.

Rebecca Ching: I love it.

Tiffany Yu: Shonda Rhimes calls it the FOD. I feel like I’ve got three-letter acronyms for stuff. FOD to her stands for first, only, different. And I think for a long time we equated leaders with these FODs, and FODs, the first, only, differents, are leaders, right, because they’re pioneering, they’re paving the way. But my one takeaway from that is that I don’t want to be the FOD for too long because then it gets really lonely and disempowering over time.

I don’t know if it’s changed from when — I guess it has changed. What did I think being a leader was? I think being a leader when I was younger was the loudest person in the room.

Rebecca Ching: Yep.

Tiffany Yu: And that’s why — and I’m a super introvert, and I think about the popularity of books like Quiet, or I have a friend who’s writing a friend about personal branding for introverts, and I think there’s a misconception that introverts can’t be leaders and that there isn’t a form of leadership that one of my friends calls quiet leadership. She’s often the conductor in the background. She may not be the loudest one in the room but she’s listening, and sometimes listening as a leader is way more powerful than being the loudest or talking all the time.

Rebecca Ching: I would go and add and say often listening is an essential quality of leadership. [Laughs] Thank you for that, and I like to wrap up with some fun, quickfire questions. So are you ready?

1:08:07

Tiffany Yu: Yes!

Rebecca Ching: What are you reading right now?

Tiffany Yu: Ooh, I’m reading What My Bones Know by Stephanie Foo.

Rebecca Ching: Okay. What song are you playing on repeat?

Tiffany Yu: The Benson Boone song.

Rebecca Ching: That one is an earworm.

Tiffany Yu: What’s it called? Do you know? “Beautiful Things.”

Rebecca Ching: “Beautiful Things.” I was like I know the mantra. I didn’t want to start singing it. [Laughs]

Tiffany Yu: I know, well, I listen to that song and then there are so many covers of it and then there are instrumental versions, and they just always make me feel something.

Rebecca Ching: It’s such a good riff. What is the best TV show or movie that you’ve seen recently?

Tiffany Yu: I just finished season two of Severance. 

Rebecca Ching: Oh, oh. Okay.

Tiffany Yu: That is very well done, but my favorite show is Schitt’s Creek.

Rebecca Ching: Oh, it’s so good. So good.

Tiffany Yu: Best movie? Ooh. this one is a little outdated, but I actually thought Oppenheimer was really well done. 

Rebecca Ching: That was a well-done movie, for sure. I’m an eighties kid. I’m a Gen X-er through and through, so what is your favorite eighties piece of pop culture? And if you’ve got nothing, what’s your favorite piece of pop culture from when you grew up?

Tiffany Yu: Ooh, I got to meet LeVar Burton recently, and I signed a copy of my book for him. I’m also an eighties baby, but I’m a millennial. I grew up watching Reading Rainbow and Arthur and Mr. Rogers, and I don’t know if that was — is that pop culture?

Rebecca Ching: Sure, anything! Anything goes. What is your mantra right now?

Tiffany Yu: I think my mantra right now is rest is required.

Rebecca Ching: I subgroup that one. What is an unpopular opinion that you hold?

Tiffany Yu: I still get a lot of joy out of a hamburger happy meal at McDonalds.

Rebecca Ching: [Laughs] I love it.

Tiffany Yu: I don’t know if that’s an unpopular opinion. I shared some provocative opinions throughout our conversation. So much joy. And actually, I just got a McDonalds happy meal the other day, and it was not the toy that I was hoping for.

1:10:08

Rebecca Ching: I’m so sorry.

Tiffany Yu: And I was a little disappointed. [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: Are you doing okay? Okay, one final question. Who or what inspires you to be a better leader and human?

Tiffany Yu: The name is escaping me right now. But I remember watching this reality show a couple years ago, and there was a woman on there who just felt like sunshine, and I thought how she moved about the world was so beautiful. And I kind of think about being sunshine more. I don’t know if that’s my personality, but I feel very inspired by people who are generous and kind of like emanating that light. And I think a lot about Shine Theory, which is this idea of me shining bright doesn’t dim your light; it’s the hope that we can all shine brighter together.

Rebecca Ching: Oh, I love that.

Tiffany Yu: So I don’t have a specific person in mind yet, but whenever I meet those people who feel like sunshine, I just feel like they’re a breath of fresh air when it can be, again, so easy to get weighed down by barriers. And I will say, my third TEDx Talk is called “The Problem with Positivity,” and I think about gratitude and how a lot of friends I think lean into gratitude to help them get through difficult times. And I wonder if my ability to feel gratitude in its fullest is impacted by the trauma that I experienced as a young kid and my healing journey.

Rebecca Ching: Mm.

Tiffany Yu: And I don’t necessarily ascribe — maybe this ties in with the unpopular opinion, I don’t necessarily ascribe to the “just got to stay positive,” you know, that talks all about toxic positivity.

1:12:00

And one thing I have learned about myself is I am someone who can find myself complaining a lot. But I complain with action. So I’ll be like, “Oh, my gosh, I have to — this book is so difficult, and I don’t want to do this, and ugh.” But then I wrote the whole book, you know? So I want to emanate sunshine, but I also know that the journey of becoming human is not only falling in love with who I’m becoming but becoming more of myself over time and figuring out what ways sunshine kind of plays a role into that, I guess I’ll say.

Rebecca Ching: That’s beautiful. How can people find you and connect with you and your work?

Tiffany Yu: The best place is my website www.tiffanyyu.com. There’s a page on there about my book and where you can get it, but you can get it at any book retailer in print, audio, or E-book. And then if you like what I’m about, Instagram and LinkedIn are kind of the two places I’m posting the most frequently.

Rebecca Ching: Wonderful. Tiffany, this was a real honor. Thank you so much for this conversation. I really enjoyed getting to know you and your thought leadership, so thank you for you and all that you put out into the world!

Tiffany Yu: Thank you!

[Inspirational Music]

Rebecca Ching: Before you go, I want to ensure you hold onto some key takeaways from my conversation with Tiffany Yu. Tiffany reminded us that persistence differs from pushing through. It starts with asking better questions, building community from scratch, and refusing to see one billion disabled people as “niche.” She showed us persistence grows when we surround ourselves with people who believe in the vision before it’s fully visible and how the smallest seeds, like a $500 grant, can become the roots of a lifelong movement. She also brought forward the powerful truth that healing and leadership don’t require perfection. They require presence, self-awareness, and room for both grief and joy to coexist. I keep thinking how Tiffany frames disability pride not just as resistance to ableism, but as a reclaiming of worth for all. And as a refusal to be reduced to trauma or productivity or pity, I think that’s a call to all of us to lead and build spaces where no one has to ask permission to belong.

1:14:36

So before you close out this episode, I invite you to reflect. Where in your life or leadership do you need to prune, not push? Where do you need to persist, and do you have the capacity to keep showing up with presence and purpose? And who or what helps you remember that rest and joy are not optional but essential? Persistence, it’s not about doing it all; it’s about doing what matters and having the support to keep doing it with clarity, care, and the courage to release and redirect when needed, and this is the ongoing work of an Unburdened Leader.

Thank you so much for joining this episode of The Unburdened Leader! You can find this episode, show notes, free Unburdened Leader resources, a link to join my new Substack “High Stakes: An Unburdened Leader Debrief”, along with ways to work with me at www.rebeccaching.com. And if this episode was meaningful to you, I’d be honored if you left a rating, a review, and shared it with folks that you think will benefit from it. And this episode was produced by the incredible team at Yellow House Media!

[Inspirational Music]