The leaders I work with want to be the kind of leaders who can handle complexity without defaulting to blame, shame, or shutting down.

But when visibility and accountability collide with unhealed relational wounding, it doesn’t matter how many books we’ve read or retreats we’ve attended; our bodies remember. And it can feel deeply uncomfortable.

Discomfort is part of the gig, though. If we let it, it moves us towards being better humans to ourselves and others. True accountability may not always lead to repair and reconnection, but it is a profoundly relational and humanizing practice led by values, accountability, and grace.

But when discomfort turns to shame, accountability feels threatening rather than connective. And when we fear accountability and its discomfort, it causes more harm.

The work of unburdening is never entirely over, but as Dr. Richard Schwartz reminded me in today’s fifth anniversary conversation, the more unburdened we are, the more accountable we become. The more we desire accountability. The more we want to see change. 

It’s a powerful affirmation of what’s possible when we commit to being Unburdened Leaders.

Richard Schwartz began his career as a systemic family therapist and an academic. Grounded in systems thinking, Dr. Schwartz developed Internal Family Systems (IFS) in response to clients’ descriptions of various parts within themselves. He focused on the relationships among these parts and noticed that there were systemic patterns to the way they were organized across clients. He also found that when the clients’ parts felt safe and were allowed to relax, the clients would spontaneously experience the qualities of confidence, openness, and compassion that Dr. Schwartz came to call the Self. He found that when in that state of Self, clients would know how to heal their parts.

A featured speaker for national professional organizations, Dr. Schwartz has published many books and over fifty articles about IFS.

 

 

Listen to the full episode to hear:

• How being in Self allows us to act assertively without igniting defensiveness
• How IFS can help us maintain our empathy and compassion without burning out
• The challenges and risks of the rapid popularization of IFS via social media
• Why being in Self is a continuum not a binary
• Why Dr. Schwartz has a pep talk with his parts every day, even after decades of doing the work
• How he’s navigating increasing media exposure while staying true to his values and IFS principles
• How Self creates a natural desire for accountability in our inner and outer worlds

 

Learn more about Dr. Richard Schwartz:

• IFS Institute

 

Learn more about Rebecca:

• rebeccaching.com
• Work With Rebecca
• The Unburdened Leader on Substack
• Sign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader Email

 

Transcript:

Richard Schwartz: It does come somewhat back to Self-leadership. So do we further shame and exile people who’ve done things, or do we try and help them? People get traumatized and their parts act out and they commit crimes, and then we lock them up, and we leave them just like we do with these inner exiles. And so, when somebody does something, do you shame them and try to keep them locked up, or do you go to them and try to help them with the exiles that drove them to do that?

[Inspirational Intro Music]

Rebecca Ching: High-stakes leadership requires unburdened leadership, not because it makes leading easier but because it makes us more resourced to deal with complexity without defaulting to blame, shame, or shutting down. One of the core pillars of unburdened leadership is developing a deep Internal Family Systems practice, which Dr. Richard Schwartz developed. So it feels incredibly fitting that as we mark five years of The Unburdened Leader, we welcome back Dick, who helped launch this podcast, for his third conversation on the show.

And y’all, if this conversation speaks to you, I really hope you take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review and share it with someone you think might benefit from this conversation. And I’m hearing from folks who listen to this show while you’re driving, while you’re cooking dinner, while you’re going for your walks. Thank you all who have been here from the beginning, and for the new followers, I’m so glad you’re here!

I’m Rebecca Ching, and you’re listening to The Unburdened Leader, the show that goes deep with humans who navigate life’s challenges and lead in their own ways. Our goal is to learn how they address the burdens they carry, how they learn from them and become better and more impactful leaders of themselves and others.

2:00

Not long ago, I found myself in a very familiar swirl of heat, like a flushed face feeling, a tight chest, a tightness in my stomach, that sour feeling there, and some shame after realizing I’d let someone I care about down. I’d said something meant one way, but the impact landed differently. And while the mistake wasn’t catastrophic for either of us or the relationship, it did touch something old in me, a part that remembered the stinging feeling of being called out in public, a part that equated being wrong with being unworthy. And that part of me wanted to over-explain my good intentions, and parts of me were also angry and defensive too because they’re tired of being misunderstood and challenged all the time. But after the initial flooding of emotion, I paused, took a breath, turned inward. I got curious about what part or parts of me were so activated and why accountability felt so high stakes to my system.

And to be honest, it took me a beat to get a sense of what was going on inside of me as those parts of me were very focused on getting things right with the person I hurt. But I got there and could really listen within and then eventually to the other person. And that moment wasn’t just about something happening in the present. It tapped an echo of an old wound, one where the echoes of burdens of public humiliation and being misunderstood still felt tender.

I see this repeatedly in the leaders I work with. They’ve done the work. They’re self-aware. But when visibility and accountability collide with unhealed parts, it doesn’t matter how many books you’ve read or retreats you’ve attended, our bodies remember. Merriam Webster defines accountability as the quality or state of being accountable, especially an obligation or willingness to accept responsibility or to account for one’s actions.

4:08

I’m gonna talk more about kind of the feeling, the emotional side of accountability because it feels uncomfortable — I think that’s part of the gig, ideally, moving us towards being better humans to ourselves and others. Accountability, to me, is a profoundly relational and humanizing practice led by values, justice, and grace. I also see how accountability can be especially difficult for those in role or status power positions who may not be used to it and have unexamined relational wounding. Shame, especially unexamined shame, can make accountability feel threatening rather than connective. I believe the lack of shame resilience, which is another pillar of unburdened leadership, is one of the biggest blockers to meaningful accountability. And if shame is leading the accountability process, I’m not sure, really, accountability is possible. So shame dehumanizes and disconnects.

Accountability may not always lead to repair or reconnection. Sometimes breaches of trust are too great to return to the way things were, but still seeing a semblance of accountability can help with decreasing moral injury and moving things forward because we don’t have to look far to see the impact of lack of accountability. And when we fear accountability, we go to great lengths to avoid discomfort, which ends up doing even more harm.

In this latest Unburdened Leader conversation, Dick Schwartz offered a powerful reminder that stayed with me, and I imagine it will for you too. And he talked about the more unburdened we are, the more accountable we become. We desire accountability. The more we desire justice, the more we want to see change.

6:00

That just really, again, feels really timely and essential. Overall, this conversation, this fifth-year anniversary conversation with Dick Schwartz is a touchstone. I believe it affirms what’s possible when we do the deep, internal work to unburden. But it also gives us a path to manage the echoes of relational trauma, even after we’ve done the deep work, so that we can lead, relate, and create change while managing the deep polarities around us that keep pulling us in.

So let me tell you a little about Richard Schwartz, who really is one of the most generous leaders I’ve met, and yeah, I just think it’s really been a gift how generous he’s been coming on the show, but I see how generous he is to so many people. He began his career as a systemic family therapist and an academic. So, grounded in Systems thinking, Dr. Schwartz developed Internal Family Systems in response to clients’ descriptions of various parts within themselves. He focused on the relationships among these parts and noticed that there were systemic patterns to the way they organized across clients. And he also found that when the clients’ parts felt safe, they were able to relax. The clients would experience, spontaneously, the qualities such as confidence, openness, compassion that Dr. Schwartz came to call the Self. He found that when in that state of Self, clients would know how to heal their parts. And Dr. Schwartz is a featured speaker for national professional organizations, and he’s published many books and over 50 articles about IFS. All right, y’all, let’s get to this special anniversary episode!

—–

Rebecca Ching: Well, welcome back to The Unburdened Leader podcast, Dick! It is so good to have you back on the show.

Richard Schwartz: Good to be back, Rebecca. Always enjoy it!

Rebecca Ching: Well, so, I don’t know if you knew this, but you are helping me celebrate the five-year birthday of this podcast! You helped me kick off the show, and this episode is celebrating five years of doing this show.

8:09

Richard Schwartz: Oh, amazing! Big congratulations!

Rebecca Ching: Thank you! You know, it got me thinking too, the last five years, I don’t know, were they in dog years for some of us too because a lot —

Richard Schwartz: A lot’s happened, huh?

Rebecca Ching: — has happened. That feels like an understatement because when we first spoke, it was the spring of 2020 and there was so much in the world that was beginning to shift. Since then, so much has changed globally and continues to, but also within the Internal Family Systems Institute that you run. I thought it’d be really cool to check in and ask you, as you’re reflecting on these past five years, I’m curious what moments or shifts stand out the most to you personally and within IFSI?

Richard Schwartz: As you know, IFS has kind of exploded in the last five years, and I guess the big thing has been trying to keep up with the demand, try to promote more trainers and put out more trainings and get more administrative staff. Yeah, that’s kind of daunting and great, you know? Dreams come true. I’d say that’s the biggest change and probably the biggest challenge is to have everybody stay connected in Self and feel the camaraderie of the mission, of the vision of what we’re trying to do.

Rebecca Ching: Mm, so when you say help everyone stay in Self, I know what that means, I know as a part of this community, but for those that maybe are IFS aware or very IFS-light aware, when you say you want to build this organization where everyone’s in Self and still meeting the demands and the needs, can you say a little bit more about that?

Richard Schwartz: Everybody we hire goes through the training and gets a good taste of what their Self feels like in their body and then what parts feel like.

10:03

And that’s so what we’re trying to bring to the world, really, is that the Self exists, that it’s just beneath the surface of these parts, and that there’s a way to access it pretty quickly and to know when you’re there and when you’re not. As leaders of a corporation trying to stay in Self because it’s contagious but also to help everybody in the corporation get a felt sense of when they’re in it and when they’re not and try to, when there’s conflict or any kind of issues, solicit inside first and do a little separation from whatever parts are triggered and come back and speak for those parts from these C-word qualities.

So one of the biggest contributions of IFS is this awareness that everybody has this essence that I call the Self with a capital S that doesn’t need to be built up because when you get there, it contains calm and confidence and curiosity, (what I call the eight C’s) compassion, clarity, courage, creativity, and connectedness. And the goal becomes to help the parts that obscure it unblend and separate and allow it to exist, and to do that, you have to get to know those parts and befriend them and help them see that there is a Self, that there is a you who can be a leader, that it’s a big relief to them to not have to run your system because they’re not equipped. They’re too young.

Rebecca Ching: Well, you know, one thing I’ve noticed as I see this work being adopted even in workspaces, right, people are aware of this model and at least their parts are aware of this work too. And one of the things that I find that I have to work with leaders and groups of people that are aware of this work is not to kind of hierarchy. It’s something that stuck with me from our very first interview five years ago.

12:08

You said, “In the face of injustice, the qualities of confidence, courage, and clarity have an edge to them,” and that landed so beautifully in my system I think, especially as a woman, where there are a lot of cultural burdens and my own personal burdens on my story around how I express myself, and I’ve got parts that are always tracking that.

And so, it was this beautiful permission slip and a beautiful kind of integration, a little bit of a harmony like a “laaa” happened when you said that, and I shared it on repeat. Anyone listening to this that works with me knows I talk about that quote from you a lot as a permission. And so, I think there’s this piece of — I love bringing in this model, but I’ve noticed if it’s not Self-led and helping people really understand versus are we just putting another framework in another vocabulary and vernacular onto something, it kind of takes all the beauty out of this framework. And there’s a place because everyone who works there goes through the training, and so, there is more of a shared experience because this is part of the mission and the vision of the organization. But I’m sure, because I know you do work with leaders and organizations, that you’ve probably heard that too.

So I’d love to have your thoughts on how sometimes when those wonderful Self-like, Self-adjacent parts just start kind of hierarching things too. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that. 

Richard Schwartz: Yeah, it’s certainly a danger, and as IFS has gotten so popular, there are so many people that haven’t done the training and are considering themselves IFS, at least, informed and are imposing it, that word, on their organizations or their marriages or their kids, it can be weaponized like you’re saying. Jeanne and I catch each other doing that, you know? “You’re in a part!” [Laughs]

14:11

Rebecca Ching: Totally.

Richard Schwartz: And so, it’s useful to just stop and see if you’re coming from a part first before you say anything, and if that part has a big agenda to get the other person to change, to not say anything until that part steps back.

Rebecca Ching: Well, that’s an interesting trailhead because I hear a lot of folks I work with, and even in my own system, kind of like, “Well, of course I want the other person to change. Like, come on! If they’re being toxic on the team, they’re not getting their work done, they’re under-performing, I want them to change.” How realistic is that in a workspace? A non-agenda curiosity is one thing, but I don’t think you’re asking folks to be remiss of those parts that are trying to move things along in their job.

Richard Schwartz: No, I’m not suggesting people should be passive and accept whenever that happens, but, you know, I work with a lot of social activists whose names you would recognize, so they do their activism not from their righteous or angry parts, they do it from Self. Like I was saying five years ago, Self can be very forceful with those three C words, but also with a fourth C word, with compassion.

So the nice thing about Self is when you go to stand up for yourself and when you go to confront somebody, you do it and you can do it forcefully, but you also can see the pain that drives them, so there’s an edge of compassion in your assertiveness too. People react better to that in terms of their defensive parts and are more able to hear you if you can do it that way.

16:08

Rebecca Ching: Compassion is really a ground zero C. I mean, they all have such important roles, but I feel like it’s the C that I need to lean on these days, or at least my system needs it. It helps those other parts relax, because there’s a lot of fear.

I don’t know if you’ve heard this, Dick. I didn’t put this in our questions, but have you seen the movement — and I know compassion and empathy are different, and there’s some beautiful research talking about the difference, but especially with empathy too, books are being written, and people are saying empathy is bad, and if you have too much empathy — and I think compassion sometimes gets lumped into this conversation. You know, I see this in faith communities like, “You’re really not following God’s call in your life.” And then in more of a business sense too then you’re too soft. This is a thing now. I had to do a deep dive in it, and it’s chilling —

Richard Schwartz: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: — this wanting to exile our humanity. I’d love your thoughts.

Richard Schwartz: Yeah, people get confused, you know? Musk, that’s his motto now that empathy is bad. You know, he’s got very extreme parts because of his childhood trauma from being beaten repeatedly by his father, so he’s got these protectors. There’s a lot of confusion. My position is the kind of empathy that too many therapists have, which says, “To help somebody I’ve got to fully feel what they’re feeling and take that in, sort of carry that for them.” Many people have those parts that believe that. Now, it’s not bad, per se. It’s just that it’ll burn you out and make you sick.

The kind of empathy where you’re in Self, you’re with somebody, you have compassion for them, and their story or what you’re seeing them go through, especially when they go to their exiles, resonates with your parts, so you feel something about what they feel but you’re not taking in their energy, that empathy can be very helpful. So that’s the distinction I try to make.

18:23

Rebecca Ching: Let me know what you think of this because one of the things — I work with a lot of leaders who are so caring. They’re incredible human beings in addition to their skill and their talent, and they wrestle with this, and I work with them on the YOU-turn of having compassion for those parts that are connecting and feeling with and that that’s the big YOU-turn of just taking a beat and instead of letting those other parts come in to try to shut down the feeling and all the things, it’s about that YOU-turn of Self-compassion that Kristin Neff writes about, and then the IFS lens on it, just that the witnessing of Self, saying, “I got you. Yeah, that was a lot, and I need some space right now so we can still engage, but I’m not gonna forget about you.” It seems to be that dance is almost the one I need to be reminded of the most because their other parts are used to going so fast. So yeah, I’d love your thoughts on that.

Richard Schwartz: Yeah, so that’s the other thing. If you have parts that over-identify or you haven’t worked with them, so they’re very burdened, they resonate with your client and they, then, take you out. That’s not good either. That’s a problem with empathy too. Ideally, as you learn IFS, you can notice when that’s happening and do some version of what you said, which is to tell the part that you get that it’s really triggered by what’s happening with the client and you’ll work with it later, but right now it needs to let you stay. Many parts can wait if they know you’re gonna follow through. They’ve waited decades to get your attention, and you’ll ideally notice a shift, then. And if you can’t, then you should apologize to your client and just say, “I need a second. Let me step out of the room,” even, “I need to,” rather than continue in your triggered state.

20:17

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, I found that to be really impactful in all of the hats I wear, whether it’s my clinical or coaching or consulting, sometimes I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, I am really blended right now.” [Laughs] And I just name it.

Richard Schwartz: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: But I think in high-stakes conversations in workspaces, to be able to say, “You know what? We need a timeout,” I think people’s systems and also the external, like our culture doesn’t like pauses and timeouts because of this worship of efficiency and speed, but I’ve found that it builds a lot of trust when they see a leader say, “You know what? There’s a lot going on here and within me right now. Can we take ten, and let’s just come back in here? Everyone take a bio break, or whatever, and let’s circle back.” I find that that has been — once they do it and they see that folks are like, “Oh, I needed this too,” that it builds some more trust within their inner system but also the systems that they’re leading externally too.

You know, we touched on in the beginning just the popularity of IFS, you know, almost the popification of the model. Going back to our very first conversation where you felt for years no one was listening and now the pendulum has swung, and as more people are drawn to IFS for healing, there’s a risk of the model — and I don’t want to say it’s becoming elitist, but it being simplified and diluted from, at least for me, what sets it apart. I’m curious, how do you feel about this increased popularity and some of these challenges?

22:01

Richard Schwartz: It’s a big problem, and it’s already happening. There are lots and lots of IFS trainings or workshops done by people that haven’t even done Level One, and then some done by people who have, but they’re certifying their training. Graduates get a certificate, even though there are 500 people in their class as opposed to ours, which are 36. And even though they just don’t have the same level of quality, and it scares the hell out of me because I come from this medical family and the motto was first to no harm, and they’re gonna do harm as therapists emerge from those trainings confident that they can do it and advertise that, so that’s a big problem.

It is a problem that the essence of the model is getting diluted, like you said. We’re working on getting the trademark back so that people have to be licensed to use it, so…

Rebecca Ching: That’s a doozy. Wow.

Richard Schwartz: Yeah, that’s one prong we’re working on to try and correct all this, and it’s good that it’s very popular, and it’s bad that there’s all this potential pollution and damage.

Rebecca Ching: What are some of the things you’re specifically doing to try and balance between staying true to the depth of the model while also meeting the demand for training and accessibility?

Richard Schwartz: One thing related to what you’re doing is to bring it to leaders and indirectly bring it to coaches to bring it to leaders. But yeah, we’re trying to do a multi-pronged approach. We’re bringing it to prisoners in jail, for example, now.

Rebecca Ching: Oh, that’s powerful.

Richard Schwartz: And we’re bringing it to the public directly more. We put out this IFS workbook this year.

Rebecca Ching: That’s right!

Richard Schwartz: Mm-hmm, and we’re toying around with AI applications, and yeah, it took a while to get bold enough to do that and to try to figure out how to do it safely.

24:05

Rebecca Ching: Say more about that. When you say it took more to be bold and do that. Say more about your process.

Richard Schwartz: Well, I was always worried that if people tried it on their own, they’d get into trouble. We had to brainstorm a lot about what kind of exercises to put in the workbook and how to warn people to go see an IFS therapist when they get into the weeds too much and things like that. So that took a while before my parts would let me do anything like that.

Rebecca Ching: You know, the intersection of do no harm, of accessibility, of a vision and a mission, and capitalism is a doozy.

Richard Schwartz: And so far, for the most part, I’ve resisted that last one pretty well. I feel, with the demand, we could have expanded the number of students we took and do what other groups are trying to do and make a lot more money. But we stayed steady with the price and with the number of students and with the ratio of assistants and all of that. And yeah, that do no harm ethic has triumphed.

Rebecca Ching: But I also know at the beginning of this year, and in that sense of do no harm, you made a big decision, you and the team, to separate the trainings. I don’t want to be facetious, kind of throw off — but it was a true parts party. I still have people reaching out wanting to talk about it, wanting to get the word out about feeling — and that’s great, a healthy conversation. I’d love for you to say more about that.

Richard Schwartz: It was a hard decision because I always had this kind of everybody’s welcome, all parts are welcome —

Rebecca Ching: Right.

Richard Schwartz: — attitude about the trainings, and we started hearing about damage happening with unlicensed people advertising themselves as IFS practitioners. So we just made the hard decision, and like you said, there was a huge blowback among the practitioners. What we saw and we’re still trying to fully deliver is that we’ll have alternatives. Coach’s training is one. I think we’re organizing one for chaplains.

Rebecca Ching: Oh, wow.

26:17

Richard Schwartz: Yeah, we’re trying to organize them for these different groups. And they’re different than the Level Ones, but they’re high quality and tailored to the particular group. So I hope that helps the frustration that some people have.

The bigger issue is when it’s done by somebody who doesn’t have a license, the person who gets hurt doesn’t have any options.

Rebecca Ching: For accountability, yeah.

Richard Schwartz: For accountability, yeah. And that’s a big issue.

Rebecca Ching: It is still a tricky one. There’s something about helping professionals. We’re an interesting bunch. We’re an interesting bunch when it’s kind of the larger umbrella of us. But I’ve also been thinking a lot about ethics these days, not just laws but ethics, and I think that’s also something that’s setting leaders apart too and also having folks that are in that vulnerable position to have a place of accountability, so I appreciate that.

[Inspirational Music]

Rebecca Ching: Leading is hard. Leading is also often controversial as you navigate staying aligned to your values, your mission, and your boundaries. Navigating the inevitable controversy can challenge your confidence and clarity and calm. I know you don’t mind making the hard decisions, but sometimes the stakes seem higher and can bring up echoes of old doubts and insecurities during times when you need to feel rock solid on your plan and action.

Finding a coach who gets the nuances of your business and leading in our complex and polarized world can help you identify the blocks that keep you playing it safe and small. Now, leading today is not a fancy title or fluffy bragging rights. It is brave and bold work to stay the course when the future is so unknown and the doubts and pains from the past keep showing up to shake things up. Internal emotional practices and systemic strategies are needed to keep the protector of cynicism at bay and foster a hope that is actionable and aligned.

28:18

So when the stakes are high and you don’t want to lose focus, when you want to navigate inevitable conflict between your ears and with those you lead, when time is of the essence and you want to make hard decisions with confidence and clarity, then Unburdened Leader Coaching is for you and where you deepen the capacity to tolerate the vulnerability of change, innovation, and doing things differently than you were taught. To start your Unburdened Leader Coaching process with me go to www.rebeccaching.com and book a free connection call. I can’t wait to hear from you!

[Inspirational Music]

Rebecca Ching: All right, I want to talk a little bit about trauma in the context of leadership. I’d love to hear your thoughts on it because I’ve given a lot of thoughts to it. But what do you think about trauma in the context of leadership, particularly in the year 2025? [Laughs] What comes to mind for you?

Richard Schwartz: Well, I alluded earlier to Elon’s trauma, and Trump’s the same. His father was brutal too, and his brother drank himself to death, and Trump instead just absorbed his father’s energy to protect himself, probably, from his father, and now those parts are running the country. When you have a lot of trauma, some firefighters will go the “self-destructive” route, and other firefighters will go the “power and control” route, like the “Never again am I gonna be in that position.” I’ve worked with a lot of people who rise to the top of corporations and organizations who got there because those striving, control-focused protectors came to dominate their life after some trauma. They are very effective in helping them climb the ladder, and when they get to that level, aren’t that great as leaders because they alienate people. And so, when they come to therapy, it’s often because they’re having all this trouble with their underlings and just getting into lots of conflict, or everybody’s scared of them. There are a lot of reasons for it.

30:30

Now, I don’t want to overgeneralize because I’ve worked with lots of CEOs who wouldn’t fit that profile.

Rebecca Ching: One theme that’s come up in my work is when, whether they work for someone that’s a leader who’s carrying a lot of burdens and they’re leading in the ways that you were talking about that we’re seeing in our government, it just taps into their own experiences of if that was a similar type of dynamic or whether they were bullied.

Richard Schwartz: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: I mean, honestly, everyone’s been a bully, bullied, or a bystander, and they rotate, I think. We all kind of rotate in those dynamics, at least two of the three, for a variety of reasons or wherever our system takes us. And so, I think there’s the other side is what so many leaders are also recognizing what’s happening and the echoes that that has on the smaller systems of their business, of their team. We’re all breathing in this tension.

I was just talking to a neighbor, before our call, who just had her second kid. She was like, “I’m just putting my head in the sand.” Her and her husband are very successful attorneys. They’re amazing human beings. But that’s what I’m hearing from a lot of people. They’re either like, “I’ve got to just focus on my family and my job,” or the other side, they’re like non-stop, 24/7, ivy-dripping, their parts won’t let them because they’re afraid they’re gonna miss something and not be safe. So I think they’re holding all of the impact that the way that we’re experiencing leadership here in The United States, how that activates their individual system and the systems of those on their team. Their thinking strategy parts are just wanting to run the show too, and then they’re like, “But you want me to be vulnerable right now?” [Laughs] You know? 

Richard Schwartz: Yeah.

32:19

Rebecca Ching: And so, I’d love for your thoughts on that.

Richard Schwartz: You know, when Trump was elected, I had parts that wanted to give up, that felt totally powerless and, “Why try?” So, you know, I went to them, and I worked with them a lot. It actually was very helpful, in a variety of aspects of my life, to do that work. And then when I got back in Self, it just felt like this is a kind of test. Can you stay in Self when it gets this bad, and can you keep going? Can you keep trying to bring it in the face of all of this hopelessness and powerlessness? So that’s the way I’ve been taking it, but part of what keeps me going is I, as probably you have, worked with clients with horrible trauma in their histories who are dominated by these protectors, so when you get there’s no Self available and the protectors are so extreme you just feel like you’re never gonna change. And then after you’ve connected a little bit with those protectors and they trust you more and you invite them to open space inside, and a little sliver of Self shows up, everything starts to change in a positive way, I think quickly, writ large. That’s my hope for this planet, and it might be too late, but we’ve got to keep trying to bring it. Basically, if we can bring enough Self energy to this realm, then things can change pretty quickly even if they look totally hopeless.

Rebecca Ching: I think I’ve heard you say this. I don’t know if it was at a training or on some kind of conversation. But instead of being in or out of Self, I’ve talked about a continuum.

34:00

And so, having that critical mass of Self and getting used to, “What kind of critical mass of Self energy do you need for this conversation? Do you need to get out of bed? Do you need, you know, to shower,” and more high-stakes stuff too, instead of this binary of in or out because I have parts that are very cautious around having seen folks weaponize, even as my friend and colleague Natalie Gutiérrez says weaponizing Self.

So yeah, my sense is that’s what you were saying, but I just want to make sure to communicate and get a little into the nuance on that. Is that landing?

Richard Schwartz: Pretty much, yeah. You’re almost never in pure Self. It’s a matter of degree, and it’s a matter of is your heart open enough, or do you have the absence of agenda enough? You’ll always have parts that’ll have some degree of agenda. You’ll have parts that want to block your heart. But if they open it enough, it’s safe to proceed.

Rebecca Ching: You know, the title of this podcast is inspired from IFS, The Unburdened Leader. And you said, and I believe this too, we’re never 100% unburdened. That’s in another state. We’re not in our current state if we’re there. But when you think of unburdened leadership, what’s an unburdened leader? You work with a lot of folks that are in a lot of high-stakes roles, and you’re in that yourself. What’s an unburdened leader to you?

Richard Schwartz: Like you said, you’re never fully unburdened. I’m still finding parts with burdens, and I’ve been at this 40 years. If you talk to a lot of the people who were around in the early days, they’ll testify that I’m a very, very different person and that I do lead with a lot more Self, even though I still have work to do. And that’s what we’re shooting for. Not that you’re always in Self or you’ve fully unblended all the time, but that when you get triggered, you know it, you’re aware that you kind of lost it for a second.

36:11

In that moment, you also can go to the part that’s taken over and remind it that it doesn’t have to do this and ask it to separate a bit. It may not separate all the way, but on a good day, you’ll notice a very palpable shift toward more Self energy embodied. So in that way, for leaders in particular, it becomes a life practice.

Rebecca Ching: Yep.

Richard Schwartz: It’s a, “I get up in the morning, I have a little pep talk with my parts and see how they’re doing and go over the day with them.”

Rebecca Ching: What’s a Dick Schwartz pep talk to your parts? Are you comfortable sharing? I’d love to hear it.

Richard Schwartz: Sure!

Rebecca Ching: What’s your pep talk in the morning?

Richard Schwartz: It’s like, “Okay, I know yesterday was hard. It was a challenge for you to separate and let me handle it. I really appreciate it. And anybody that needs an audience about that, I’m happy to listen.” You know, it’s like a tantrum-y kid. You’re not gonna totally change them, especially the ones that still are activated by something. I’ll bookmark all that, and when it comes time for me to do some work, those are the ones I’m gonna remember and go to.

Like I said, I’ll go over the day and my calendar and, “Remember, this particular client, you usually get triggered. Just trust me to stay,” or “I’m doing this podcast, and I know you want it to go well, but just trust me. I can handle it.” And at this point, most of the time they trust me, so they do, and I’ll notice the shifts, particularly now with the nervous ones, and I can be in a lot of Self. And that’s true in most contexts now.

Oh, I was on Huberman [Lab], and when we started out, I did that little pep talk. But in the first ten minutes I could notice my hand was shaky, and I just internally said, “I get you’re scared, but just let me stay. Let me handle it,” and it stopped shaking, and it went well.

38:12

And so, that’s part of the practice that I try to bring to leaders, the life practice of it, noticing when you’re triggered, remembering the markers you have for knowing Self and checking those markers and getting back.

Rebecca Ching: You mentioned being on Huberman, I’m sure you get this, right? I’m sure you get — as you’re expanding the conversations on IFS, I’ve been really sitting with that and, “Oh, I can’t believe he did that conversation! Are you talking to them?” And Huberman was one of the parts of me, and I know people that listen to the show, some people love his show. But to me, there are things about that particular person that’s been discussed, and even just the sharing of science. There are some things I’ve rumbled with on how he’s communicated things. And yet, from what I know about you, you’re like, “Hey, I want to get the word out on this work, and these folks are listening to all these other things, why not –.” That was my generous assumption.

At what point — you don’t have to say who, but do you ever just say, “No, I’m not going on their podcast or I’m not doing that interview or going to their retreat or whatever?” or is your system at the point like, “I can work with anybody”? But where do you discern that for your own system and your own values too?

Richard Schwartz: Well, yeah, I was made aware —

Rebecca Ching: I bet you were. [Laughs]

Richard Schwartz: — by my wife and other people of some of his background.

Rebecca Ching: Good.

Richard Schwartz: So I looked into it myself, and it is a kind of trade off, you know? Do you want to lend the IFS credibility to someone who might have done damage to people and hasn’t been fully accountable? That’s a challenge now as it gets popular. Would I go on Joe Rogan? I’m not sure. There’s some kind of line, but he didn’t cross that line for me.

40:11

Rebecca Ching: Has there ever been a time where you’ve said no, where you’ve drawn the line, or not yet?

Richard Schwartz: I don’t think yet. I can’t remember why. Yeah, it’s challenging because it’s like when Morning Joe and his wife went to have dinner with Trump after badmouthing him for a couple years, he lost a lot of viewers. So it does come somewhat back to Self-leadership. And so, do we further shame and exile people who’ve done things, or do we try and help them? And that’s what we’re trying to bring to the prison project. People get traumatized and their parts act out and they commit crimes, and then we lock them up and we leave them just like we do with these inner exiles. And so, when somebody does something, do you shame them and try to keep them locked up, or do you go to them and try to help them with the exiles that drove them to do that?

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, I mean, that work is absolutely beautiful and sadly gonna be even more necessary the way I see things going with the prison industrial complex here in our country.

You know, I’ve got to tell you, I think about all this with the shame piece. I got this podcast pitch for this guy to come on my show, and his whole thing — and I can’t let it go. I’ve been talking to my producers about it — was that if you need accountability in your relationship with your team member, you’re doing your relationship wrong, and that accountability leads to shame.

Richard Schwartz: I wouldn’t take that position.

Rebecca Ching: I’m glad. [Laughs] I’m glad that you say that, Dick.

Richard Schwartz: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, no. I mean, he talked about shame in a way that I conceptualize, but I think there’s a difference between guilt and feeling remorse and that discomfort of having to change how you see yourself and others that a lot of folks that carry a ton of privilege and power, a lot of role and status power, that don’t have to do that.

42:21

They’re able to move through it. And so, I think when you talk about the prison project, this work feels essential. But there are these other folks that are able to move in and out of spaces and still do harm without the accountability.

Richard Schwartz: Pretty much, yeah. And they’re still in parts. And the Self naturally apologizes, naturally takes accountability.

Rebecca Ching: Mm.

Richard Schwartz: So I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, but over and over, I’ll have somebody go to their exiles and their exiles are furious with them because they locked them up and they say, “Why should I be nice to you? You hurt me, and you’re still hurting me, and I don’t trust you.” The client naturally will apologize and own it and say, “You’re right. I let these other parts lock you up, and I’m really sorry. I’m gonna work to not have that happen.” When you get enough Self, there’s this natural accountability in the inner world and the outer world. There are parts that will pretend to be sorry, and there are parts that are destined to try and protect the person’s heart from the shame of what they did, but they don’t want to face it. They want to minimize it and will be very defensive. So you have to work with those parts to get to where they can own it and be in Self because you don’t want a parts-led apology, you don’t want parts-led accountability either.

Rebecca Ching: And I’ve actually had some really incredible activists on the show who talk about naming and shaming, and I gently push back saying, and I’ll die on this sword, “I don’t think sustained change happens with shaming.”

44:04

But like this guy who pitched me, I think accountability could lead to some shame, but it’s not a shaming technique if it’s done from a place of empathy and compassion and love, which is, yeah, from Self-led was critical mass Self energy.

Richard Schwartz: Yeah, the problem with shaming — and back in the day when I had a really severe inner critic, anything somebody would say that was slightly shaming, that part would cease and would beat the shit out of me. And that was so brutal that I had to be defensive. I had to fight back against the critic and then fight back against the person or else placate the person just to get my critic off my back. And now that I don’t have that, that part is totally retired, and somebody can give me feedback and let me know how I screwed up, and I don’t have that shame. I don’t have that shame reaction, and it makes it so much easier to be accountable.

Rebecca Ching: One of the things I’ve noticed for me where my judgy — I still have some pretty strong judgy parts, but I recognize that they’re inextricably connected to the things I care the most about. What do you care the most about right now? Where do your judgy parts maybe come in, whether towards you or others? They may not be critical, but maybe they get a little spicy? What are the things you care the most about that maybe are tender to you and you care about?

Richard Schwartz: Well, you know, I still have this vision that’s driven me all these 40 years about bringing IFS, bringing Self-leadership to the largest circles and having it become a cultural meme and shift the way people relate to themselves inside and outside. And so, I still care about that, and I’m doing repairs with my kids because they call that the fourth sibling and the third sibling, and I’m not driven in the same way that I used to be about it. And so, I make a lot of space for them, and we have been able to apologize and repair. But yeah, that’s still what I care about the most, really, and my close relationships. I’m not sure what your question is. So…

46:20

Rebecca Ching: Well, just asking you where do you feel you can go to judgement or feel critical? You said you’ve got your inner critic towards you, but I suspect there are still some things that maybe could take you to feeling anger or frustrated or protective.

Richard Schwartz: I still have parts that feel very protective of weak people, people who — the exiles in our country. And I hate what’s happening now, and various circles have been outspoken about it, and I know their parts, and I know that if I let them just take over, it’s gonna alienate people. But if I can have a more Self-led conversation, I can be in Self when I’m talking to a Trump supporter, for example, and get curious. They have a story too, and there are reasons why he’s in ascendance, and it’s got to do with how many people have felt exiled in our country. So I try to apply the model at the level of countries and the planet, and that actually is very helpful to have perspective. But yeah, no, there are parts of me that still get quite outraged.

Rebecca Ching: You know, that’s kind of been my mantra this year, Dick, is protect my outrage because I realize it’s kind of part of the business plan is to have me bouncing so I’m not embodied, I’m not maintaining a critical mass of Self. But there are some times where I just feel like Self has just been wanting to primal scream too just to the grief —

Richard Schwartz: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: — and the rage. It feels healthy and generative when I look at it.

Richard Schwartz: Self can grieve. It’s a different kind of grief than parts grief, but it’s a grief of compassion.

48:11

Rebecca Ching: I remember you teaching that, and that made a big difference on my own practice and how I teach this work too. I think it’s so important to remember that.

You mentioned your age, and you’ve been doing this for 40 years, and how do you envision IFS continuing to evolve? I mean, looking back and kind of where you’re going, and I mean, you’re still going strong. You’re leading retreats. You’re speaking. You’re doing podcasts. You’re not slowing down at all. But how do you see IFS continuing to evolve to meet the needs of this new era, particularly in terms of supporting leaders and all kinds of organizations?

Richard Schwartz: You know, I have some visions about that. One is to do more of what we call collective unburdenings, collective legacy unburdenings where large groups of people gather and support each other and find these legacy burdens that drive so many of the world’s conflicts and then, as a group, unburden. And then I’ve been talking to various people about developing a protocol for that and enlisting people like you to actually be part of something like that, working with people who have the skill to organize something like that.

So, you know, there are parts of me that do want to slow down and want to have more of a life, but my guides don’t seem to want that. They feel like there’s more urgency than ever to bring Self-leadership to the planet. So I don’t plan on slowing down anytime soon. If anything, it’s a servant to these guides.

Rebecca Ching: Can you say more about that for folks who don’t understand what that means?

Richard Schwartz: I’ve become more and more out of the closet about the spirituality of IFS and how both in clients is now called guides started showing up 20-some years ago and were always very helpful and wise and helpful.

50:16

And then as they start to open to that possibility, they start showing up in me, and I encountered a woman who could channel my guides, and I’ve been doing that for 20 years with her. And so, I can ask them what do they want and where do they want me to go and things like that. Then when I do a higher-dose Ketamine, I can go to a place where I’m talking to them.

Rebecca Ching: Wow.

Richard Schwartz: And as they come back I’ll say, “Don’t leave me,” and I’ll say, “I don’t want to come back.” This is a really hard school here. It’s a really hard place.

Rebecca Ching: It’s a really hard school right now, yeah.

Richard Schwartz: Yeah, in general it is, and particularly now. And I’m supposed to come back, and I’m supposed to step it up.

Rebecca Ching: And why do you though? Why do you not check out? Why do you not just, you know, go live your best life and sit with the medicines and do your thing? Why do you keep showing up the way that you are right now?

Richard Schwartz: Because when you don’t listen, they’ll screw up your life, [Laughs] which has happened a few times.

Rebecca Ching: Noted.

Richard Schwartz: Yeah. I’m not doing it out of fear. I’m doing it probably because I still love it, you know? I love these conversations. I love bringing it to people and turning them onto it, and I love the times when I do demos and people go to these amazingly deep places. Yeah, the idea of retiring and sitting around? I don’t have any hobbies. What am I gonna do, watch TV all night?

Rebecca Ching: So, you know, in these chapters that you’re writing at this season, anything else you mentioned, the vision for collective unburdenings, which I felt stir in my system, because there’s something so powerful about being in a community where that’s actually possible. That’s end game to me in the best of ways. Anything else that feels important for you?

52:16

Richard Schwartz: I see a lot of potential in the psychedelics world, so I’m proud that IFS is seen as one of the primary models for using psychedelics as therapy. I was skeptical at first, but I’ve had enough experiences now to see how protectors just go to sleep, basically, and then the enormous amount of Self and then the exiles feel the invitation to come in, and you can do a 15-minute session, which will take you 5 sessions to do, or nearly. So I’m very supportive of the efforts to bring it to education.

Rebecca Ching: You know, and the piece about sitting with the medicines, and I’ve had my own rumbles with it, but when clients are doing it with the right supports and the right plans, intentions, integration, support, and I hear about their experiences, it is such a gift when they share. Oh, my gosh. I get concerned about it being trendy and everyone microdosing on their own where it’s just the bypassing piece, and I think that’s still happening a lot in a lot of appropriation of a lot of beautiful things happening. But man, it’s such a gift to be able to hear folks share these experiences and this wisdom that they’re told and see how it shifts their life. So that’s really cool.

Richard Schwartz: I totally agree with both of the things you said. Michael Pollan did a big disservice —

Rebecca Ching: Oh.

Richard Schwartz: — by implying that it’s the medicine that’s the healing agent, so we’re still paying for that. The medicine is an accelerator of the healing and potential door opener, but things can go really south too if you’re doing it by yourself.

54:03

Rebecca Ching: Exactly, and with those who are trained in this and have experienced it in beautiful and ethical ways, it’s all about the people that are with you and the connection that’s part of that so they can check in. It all feels like connection and community is such, internally but also externally, a powerful part of it.

So as we wrap up, I mean, there are so many ways I want to go with this, but I always ask folks — I don’t think I’ve asked this for you because I’ve updated this question since you were last on but how do you define leadership, and how has that definition evolved from what you were taught growing up?

Richard Schwartz: Well, I was taught, I’d say, both in my family, which I have five brothers (so there were six boys, no girls) and also in my peer group, a kind of macho form of leadership, which involved, “Don’t show vulnerability. Dominate.” It’s a kind of Trump form of leadership. It took me quite a while to get those parts to trust that it is safe to be vulnerable and honest and not have to always try to impress everybody and all that.

We alluded to this earlier, but I’ve evolved in my leadership enormously, especially if you’d ask the people who were around in the early days. Yeah, so it’s just shifting more and more towards Self-leadership.

Rebecca Ching: And how can leaders embrace the complexities of this moment while staying true to themselves, their values, staying in as much Self energy as possible? What does that look like now?

Richard Schwartz: I mentioned earlier that I went to those powerless parts and hopeless parts and helped them. It actually allowed for big healing for my system because they were stuck in places that I hadn’t gotten to before. We use Trump as, these days, what we call a tormentor. He’s tormenting us but he’s also mentoring us about what we need to heal. If you can do that, then you can be Self-led in your activism.

56:18

And once a lot of these parts open space, that C-word Self has clarity to see injustice and the courage to act to deal with that. And so, you become much more of an activist, and you’re not so dominated by your own selfish concerns that your burdened parts keep you focused on. And yet, that C-word, connectedness, makes you know that you’re not separate, both — I don’t know if you’ve seen the cartoon on the internet where there’s a boat, and it’s tipped up like this, and at the low end people are bailing like crazy, and at the high end these guys are saying, “Boy, I’m glad there’s no holes up here because look at them,” you know? So you get that sense that we’re all in the same boat, and you want to work much more for the collective than for your own egoic views.

Rebecca Ching: Gosh, that is so true.

Richard Schwartz: That servant leadership idea, yeah.

Rebecca Ching: For sure. Dick, thanks for coming back to the show! Thank you for your consistent generosity with your time, your heart, and sharing your story. I really appreciate it, and I’m just really excited to continue to share this work and your vision and legacy with folks on the show.

Richard Schwartz: Well, congratulations on your success! And I’m grateful to you.

Rebecca Ching: And if folks wanted to connect more with your work, is the best place for them to find it on the IFSI website?

Richard Schwartz: Yeah. And our annual conference is in September. I hope you’ll be there!

Rebecca Ching: I’ve already got my reservation!

Richard Schwartz: Fantastic.

58:01

Rebecca Ching: All right, thank you again, Dick, I really appreciate it.

Richard Schwartz: Always good to see you, Rebecca!

—–

Rebecca Ching: As I close out this five-year anniversary episode, I keep coming back to something Dick said in this conversation. He said one of the biggest contributions of IFS is the awareness that everybody has this essence that I call the Self with a capital S that doesn’t need to be built up because when you get there, it contains calm and confidence and curiosity — what I call the eight C’s — compassion, clarity, courage, creativity, connectedness, right? I love this because it’s not like we need to go learn these things. We just need to unburden our system because they’re there. We have them in us intrinsically, whether we have burdens from our own personal story or the cultural burdens of just being in this world and living and working in the systems we do. And the work of unburdened leadership isn’t about perfection or always being in Self, right?

I sometimes see that, and as Dick reminded us in this conversation, it’s not that you’re always in Self or fully unblended all the time. Now, here’s the gig: when you get triggered, you know it, and you can go to the part that’s taken over and remind it, it doesn’t have to overwhelm you. That moment of awareness, that pause is where change begins, and for unburdened leaders, it becomes a life practice.

Self-leadership, again, the core of unburdened leadership, allows us to notice when we’re leading from a part, especially one with a big agenda, and to slow down enough to ask it to step back and to disconnect with it. As Dick offered, it’s useful to just stop and see if you’re coming from a part first before you say anything. I still suck at this. But I’ve gotten better over the years. And this lens Dick spoke about offers an alternative in a world that tempts us to lead through shame, blame, dominance, especially when we feel so exhausted and cynical. We don’t have to exile parts of ourselves or other people. Imagine that!

1:00:18

So I’m curious, what’s your relationship with accountability? What came up for you after hearing this conversation, and what gets in the way of you seeking it or offering it? How do you respond when discomfort arises? Do you meet it with shame? Do you retreat? Do you attack? Are you curious? And how can deepening your awareness of capital S Self impact how you lead yourself and others?

So for those of you listening, may you continue to explore what it means to lead with more Self, even on the messy days. May you notice the moments when your parts are activated, and choose presence over performance, curiosity over control, and courage over collapse.

Thank you, truly, for five years of walking this path together, for staying the course in the spaces that try to numb your clarity and confidence, and for doing the work to be a leader who builds trust within and around you. And this is the ongoing work of an Unburdened Leader.

Thank you so much for joining this five-year anniversary episode of The Unburdened Leader! You can find this episode, show notes, free Unburdened Leader resources, along with ways to sign up for my new Substack and ways to work with me at www.rebeccaching.com. And, again, if you have not already subscribed to this show, left a rating and a review and shared it with someone, I would be so honored! This helps us get the show out to more people. And this episode was produced by the incredible team at Yellow House Media!

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