When you are excited about something, how do you show up?

Do you wear excitement and passion on your sleeve for all to see? 

Maybe your personality is more low-key and strategic, and it is less obvious when you’re really excited about an idea, a vision, or being a part of something.

Or maybe you adapt and edit yourself, muting your responses to play it cool for fear you won’t be taken seriously. 

Yes, it’s essential to consider your role, environment, and audience when you feel energized about something. But if we’re constantly focused on who we should be, how we should act, and what the right thing to say is, it’s hard to have hope and a vision for the future. 

Meg Raby Klinghoffer does not feel weighed down by messages about playing it cool and downplaying her excitement and joy anymore. She is emphatically all in with helping others envision how the spaces where we live, work, and play can be inclusive for those with invisible disabilities. She is becoming a contagion to create spaces where we can all be welcome and feel comfortable being ourselves, from concerts to museums to schools and beyond.

Meg is the author of the My Brother Otto series, a Speech-Language Pathologist, a writer for Scary Mommy, and a full-time employee of KultureCity, the nation’s leading nonprofit in sensory inclusion. She is also autistic. 

At any given moment, Meg is thinking about how to better love the humans around her and how to create positive change without causing division.

 

 

Listen to the full episode to hear:

• How receiving an autism diagnosis and owning that identity has allowed Meg to advocate for herself more freely
• How to respectfully approach learning more about and supporting the autistic adults in your life
• How having an autistic community helped Meg let go of old rules and embrace her identity
• How KultureCity addresses the need for macro-level change to make spaces more supportive and inclusive
• Meg’s vision for moving beyond awareness or acceptance to true inclusion

 

Learn more about Meg Raby Klinghoffer:

• KultureCity
• Scary Mommy
• Instagram: @author.meg.raby

 

Learn more about Rebecca:

• rebeccaching.com
• Work With Rebecca
• Sign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader Email

 

Resources:

• Somebody’s Daughter: A Memoir, Ashley C Ford
• Kamala Harris and the Threat of a Woman’s Laugh – Sophie Gilbert, The Atlantic
• We’re Not Broken: Changing the Autism Conversation, Eric Garcia
• Yung Pueblo
• Post Malone – Hollywood’s Bleeding
• Lauren Daigle – Rescue
• 3 Body Problem
• The Jacksons: An American Dream

Transcript:

[Inspirational Intro Music]

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: It’s so many of us that are neurodivergent or autistic, and it’s time to take the time to learn about what that means and to just come alongside and to support and cheer and just be friends, be respectful and see our humanity and do this life with us. We’re not a project to be looked at. We want to just be embedded in the very fiber that makes humanity what it is, and that’s where true inclusion comes from.

Rebecca Ching: When you’re excited about something, how do you show up? Do you let your emotions show, wearing them on your sleeve so all can see your excitement and passion, or are you more strategic, maybe more lowkey in your personality and temperament, and it’s less obvious to those who don’t know you well when you’re really excited about an idea, a vision, or something that you really want to be a part of? Or maybe you question yourself and edit your responses when you feel really excited about something and you show up in ways that meet what you think those around you expect of you by muting your enthusiasm for fear of safety or not being seen as cool, serious, or grounded enough.

Now, yes, it’s always a good idea to pause and take an inventory of our surroundings, be aware of the identities we hold, and how we insert ourselves into spaces when we feel passionate about something, absolutely. But I believe there’s a difference between considering your role and checking your environment and knowing your audience when you feel energized about something and blowing through a space without regard for anyone but yourself. The former leaves you feeling connected, inspired, and more courageous, while the latter leaves you feeling steamrolled, disrespected, and devalued. By showing up authentically in our excitement and our passions, it’s a given that we’ll be misunderstood no matter how we try to package ourselves.

2:13

These days, I find myself most curious about the leaders who dare to show up in authentic ways that deepen connection, curiosity, and human dignity and inspire us in the present to imagine a different future regardless of whether we fully agree with them or not.

I’m Rebecca Ching, and you’re listening to The Unburdened Leader, the show that goes deep with humans who navigate life’s challenges and lead in their own ways. Our goal is to learn how they address the burdens they carry, how they learn from them and become better and more impactful leaders of themselves and others.

So this fall, I decided to do a series on the podcast connecting with leaders who imagine a better world and call us to action today not from fear or scarcity but through how they show up and with how they lead themselves and others, inviting us to do the same, not in a culty way but in a way that connects us outside of our comfort zone and into possibility even when it’s messy and hard. Gosh, we often protect ourselves from imagining a better world by preparing for the worst, often because of our past experiences, and we do this to protect ourselves from the pain of rejection, alienation, and not being taken seriously at the expense of our authenticity, our honesty, and our light.

I recently saw this quote from Ashley Ford. She is author and New York Times Best Selling author of the memoir Somebody’s Daughter, and Ashley wrote, “Some people are only able to use their imagination to dream up a worst-case scenario. This does not and has never automatically made them correct. They just think it’s a less disappointing way to be wrong, which is also incorrect. Don’t hand your beliefs over to anyone who can’t imagine a more beautiful world than the one we have now. Don’t be recruited into a campaign of doom and misery based in hopelessness. It won’t save you, help you, or soothe you. it will just hurt before it needs to.”

4:41

That’s powerful, right? And I see and work with many leaders, particularly female leaders, carrying the burdens of sexism, fear, and despair, carrying the wounds of betrayal in relationships and betrayal trauma so much so that they mute and edit themselves in ways that silence and self-shame their passion, their voices, and their truth.

Now, this phenomenon of preparing for the worst and playing it cool is not new, but it stands out to me even in my own journey, and if you’ve been listening to the show or you’ve known me for a while, you know that I am a never-recovered captain of the cheerleading squad, circa big hair in the 1980s. I grew up in a town in the Midwest where high school sports were treated as revivals and a form of religious practice, and I was super into school spirit. Okay, I know this is not most of you, and that’s very much 1980s Rebecca, and frankly, you know, I wouldn’t mind bringing her back to 2024 a bit with definitely some refinement because that’s exhausting, not just to me but those around me. I mean, it’s still true even to this day, playing it cool is something I have to work at because I have no chill about most things, especially to the chagrin of my teenagers.

But like many of you, even with all of that wear-it-on-my-sleeve energy, I grew up believing the messages around the fact that people won’t take you seriously or not respect you if you show up as too much or too intense.

6:18

This brings me to another quote I recently read by Sophie Gilbert in The Atlantic, and she said, “Criticism of emotional expression has long been a weapon of choice for those wanting to cut down women in political power.” Let me read that again. “Criticism of emotional expression has long been a weapon of choice for those wanting to cut down women in political power.” I mean, I just have to note that this quote feels especially noteworthy right now here in the US with a female (Black, AAPI, female) leading the democratic ticket for president. It’s not official official yet at the recording of this, but it’s looking that way, and many of us who’ve been feeling scared about the stakes of this year’s election have relaxed our protectors maybe for a brief moment around the passion and the vision that we’re all imagining, waiting for, needing for our country. And there was also this bracing from women and women of color after the news kind of sunk in about the shifts in this election and what lies ahead with the criticism, the vitriol, the attacks on looks and laughs and other really dark nonsense so many women and women of color are used to as they seek more power and dignity, basic human rights.

And yet, if we’re constantly focusing on who we should be, how we should be, how we should act, and what’s the right thing to say and constantly adapting to the environments around us to stay safe, which, side note, is such a common indicator of someone who’s had any kind of relational trauma because if you’ve been through relational trauma, you know how to morph and adapt and contort to the environment around you to the extent that you may lose touch with who you are.

8:13

And I know there’s a good chunk of my life that I knew more about who I should be than who I was, and honestly, that’s a bulk of the folks I work with who have PhDs in knowing who they should be. And when you lead from this place, it’s hard to have hope and a vision for the future when all your energy’s going to masking and fitting in and managing and tolerating and hiding and editing.

So when I see a female leader owning herself and the process, choosing kindness, love, and joy with boundaries and intention as a result of her own personal hard work to get to know herself, it is medicine. And this kind of presence brings out the best in us and invites us to imagine a different world, a better world, not just for the future but for today. And my guest today is someone who does not feel weighed down by the messages around playing it cool anymore, and she doesn’t micromanage her excitement or joy, let alone the constant criticisms of emotional expressions, so many women endure now. She just is all in. She chooses to emphatically be all in with loving people and helping others see a vision of how all spaces we live, work, and play in can be inclusive for those with invisible disabilities. Her passion and vision are far from naive as she’s fought to know who she is at her core, really love and know herself, and in turn she’s become a contagion for all of us to start to create spaces with her like her favorite rock concerts or museums or places we love to shop and where we learn and that we can all be welcome there and feel comfortable being ourselves.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer is an autistic female, children’s author of My Brother Otto series, speech/language pathologist, writer for Scary Mommy, and full-time employee of the nation’s leading nonprofit in sensory inclusion, KultureCity.

10:14

At any given moment, Meg is thinking about how to better love on the humans around her and how to create positive change without causing division.

I want you to listen for when Meg talks about the freedom she felt in casting the vision for the world she wants for all as she learned to advocate for herself first and step into her autistic identity and how that unleashed purpose and passion for herself and how she shows up in the world. Pay attention to when Meg talks about her vision for difference and the power of learning from different voices. And notice when Meg talks about how we can move forward in this world together, which supports freedoms for all where we own all of who we are and can cultivate spaces that welcome all. Now, please welcome Meg Raby Klinghoffer to The Unburdened Leader podcast.

Meg, welcome to The Unburdened Leader podcast!

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to get to do this with you!

Rebecca Ching: Ah, there’s so much I want to talk about, but I’d like to just start by you sharing with me about the first time that you started to wonder if you were autistic and how did it feel to even wonder that?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: So my background is in speech and language pathology. I got my master’s in that over a decade ago, and actually I had no desire to work with autistic children or adults because it was the popular thing that all my cohort wanted to do. And so, I was like, “I’m gonna do something different!” But then I had a professor say, “Hey, Meg! I want you to come work in this lab with me. It’s with autistic preschoolers,” and I was like, “Okay.”

And then I did and, lo and behold, loved it, was very quick to make connections with them and to just become friends with them and was always a little bit curious about that. Like why, you know? Why was I able to make such quick friendship with them? And people would tell me, “Oh, you’re so good with these kids,” or “You’re great with my autistic 22-year-old daughter,” and I would just be like, “I just love them, and that’s what it is!”

12:39

And then, as years passed, I grew on social media just a little bit. I have a tiny, little platform on social media because I also am a children’s author for the series My Brother Otto, and My Brother Otto features two crows, and Otto is autistic in it, and through just that platform I became friends with a lot of autistic adults specifically. But I have friends that were autistic that would just be talking with me and then be like, “Oh, Megs, you know, when did you learn you were autistic?” And I’d be like, “Um, what? I am not autistic.” No shame in if I was, but I was just like, “No, I’m not autistic. I don’t know where that’s coming from.”

So then when I don’t know something, something that’s kind of integral to who I am, I have to ask. So I’m like, “Okay, mark it out for me. Where do you see that I might be autistic? Because I’m open to it,” and they would point out these lists of things, and I’d be like, “Huh, I never thought about that.” But my own personal view of autism changed across the last two decades of my life. I was open to like, “Oh, well, I guess it is a possibility that I might be neurodivergent, be autistic myself,” but never pursued diagnosis, never really sought that out.

14:07

But then I had other friends like Eric Garcia or like I don’t know if you know Terra Vance from NeuroClastic, if you’ve ever heard of NeuroClastic. I became friends with her, and she was saying, “Oh, my gosh, Meg. You definitely are autistic,” and was explaining why that is.

And some of the main identifiers that led me to pursue — I got diagnosed in Holladay, Utah, like, two years ago but what led me to pursue that was I’ve always known there’s something different about me. I’ve always been a huge feeler, even as a toddler. I can remember — hence that’s where My Brother Otto comes from. I just remember taking on other people’s emotions and then having a really hard time getting out of that space, and then I have always had a strong sense of social justice, like if something is wrong, then we’ve got to make it right, and how do we move forward if we haven’t fixed what is wrong! That makes no sense to me.

And other things that led to it was I had a stimming behavior or a stimming practice that I did my whole life until my twenties, and then now I only intermittently do it. But my parents termed it thumping, and it’s where I would — I mean, I would do this for hours, especially right before bedtime. I would elevate the top part of my body and then slam it down and create rhythms on my bed. I did this at sleepovers with friends in high school, and it’s been interesting to hear them — because I’d never thought about that. Was that bizarre to look over and see your friend doing that, and they were so accepting because they never said anything, and the one that I chatted the most with, she was like, “I just saw, well, you look happy and you’re sleeping, so I just let you be.” And I was like, “Thank you.”

16:10

Rebecca Ching: What a gift.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: Real quick, for those who may not know what stimming is, can you just share what stimming is?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah, stimming is when you are entering a space because in your body you’re feeling a need to regulate. Even it could be a happy emotion that you’re attaching it with so you’re stimming and doing these small, repetitive behaviors or motions, actions. It can be physically spinning around and around in a repetitive manner. It can be holding a pipe cleaner like Otto does and looking at it at all different angles just to get that sensory input again to just make your whole self feel at homeostasis. So, for me, it was that repetitive, full upper-body movement that really puts me in a place where I’m feeling my best self.

Rebecca Ching: And often stimming behaviors are what folks that are what we call neurotypical when we see as maybe bad or wrong or not okay or weird. There’s some judgment around that, too.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: But really the roots of it is just regulation, is comfort, and it’s metabolizing emotion.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Absolutely. 

Rebecca Ching: What shifted for you when you owned your autistic identity, if anything at all?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes, I tell everyone when I finally 100% knew, and what led me to that 100% knowing was I have mild Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome where I have a hyper-mobile body. I’ve always been really flexible and would throw out my joints, my elbows, when I was a kid, and I found there’s a huge correlation between female autism and Ehlers-Danlos, and that’s what led me to go, “Okay, I need to go look more into this,” and then I landed on, with a psychologist I was working with, “Yes, you most definitely are a neurodivergent autistic female.”

18:13

And I think at that time after already being an advocate and working with the autistic children, working with autistic adults, writing the Otto books, I felt a sense of freedom because everything made sense now, and I think if I would have known about being autistic as a child things wouldn’t have felt necessarily as kind of doomsday to me. Like I overanalyzed everything as a kid and would be like, “How is everyone just moving forward?” I couldn’t read some of my friends’ facial expressions and match them with the emotion they were emitting sometimes, and I would just call them up and ask them about, “What did you mean after lunch when you did this?” And it was just — I mean, that’s a lot of emotion and a lot of stuff to carry with you, especially as a kid. And I think if I would have known not everyone experiences the world the same way also, that would have been very freeing and helpful to be like, “Okay, so I’m experiencing this in a more intense way, and maybe my best friend is experiencing it in her way, and her way’s not wrong, and my way’s not wrong,” and that’s where we’re coming together and kind of seeing this is how we can move forward in this world together.

So I found a lot of freedom and then in the ability to kind of advocate for myself and to step into that autistic identity, honestly, I’ve been healthier physically since being diagnosed. I used to just catch every cold, get sick with things frequently, and now it’s just like I’m willing to risk to say, “Hey, what did you mean by when you said that,” if I don’t understand something or, “Ooh, I’m feeling a lot of heavy emotion right now, and that’s okay, but it may take me three days to fully recover.”

20:11

Yeah, that whole knowing about yourself, there’s a lot of freedom in that, and then even my friends would tell you they’ve seen physical health come from the diagnosis.

Rebecca Ching: That’s powerful. I mean, our bodies really let us know what’s working and what’s not.

Something that feels particularly personal to me is how can we best support someone or better support someone who learns, especially later in life, about their neurodivergence in the spaces we work and lead? I feel like I’ve had this unintentional specialty where people come work with me and discover and really find their own freedom in their neurodivergence and also as a parent and a partner in a neurodivergent family and seeing how the world always pushes back on those things, what would you say with your experience personally and professionally how we can best support somebody who learns about their neurodivergent identity later in life?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: You know, if you have a question about your friend or your coworker that just got diagnosed or just discovered their neurodivergence, ask them to talk about it because it is a big shift. It’s a big thing that your brain is now focused on. And so, knowing that you’re not alone and then getting kind of that reinforcement from them that they’re here with you and they’re just curious about you and intentionally trying to gain more understanding of you, there is a natural sense of you are a safe person and your relationship with that person will grow. There are various accommodations that you can also learn as a friend and as a coworker, like picking up on like, “Hey, when I did this (like I’ve read about female autism) does this do this, Meg?” or “Tell me about this,” you know, asking those curious questions, taking actual intentional time to look up what it means to be a female and be autistic or what does it mean to be a child and be autistic knowing that, yes, from person to person we all experience things differently but there are commonalities and there are things that can definitely create a better friendship, create a better coworking, working environment as well.

22:30

Rebecca Ching: It’s not like one of those things like, “I don’t want to be rude.” It’s actually, “Hey, I’d love to learn more if this is okay,” and that is an invitation in relationship building is what I’m hearing.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: Doing your own research and understanding that the spectrum is the spectrum, not a monolith of one person. It’s not a monolith. And staying curious because, you know, it’s interesting what some of the organizations I work wit — I mean, great people but I hear when they kind of go off on the side or are like, “Oh, my gosh. Everyone’s neurodivergent now.” Like hearing some of the cynical stuff, and so, yeah, what would you say to that? What would you say to that, folks who are just —

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Cynical?

Rebecca Ching: Yeah, the cynical.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: It kind of shuts down, it feels like, “Oh, this is a trend.”

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes.

Rebecca Ching: And I’m like or it’s like the veil. The curtain is pulling back. It’s not — you know. [Laughs] It’s about dang time. My sense is for them it’s like this feels out of control, this is different. Your power is shifting. Those are the things that I talked to them about. But what would you say if you kind of overheard someone just rolling their eyes going, “Oh, my gosh. Everyone’s neurodivergent now”?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah, I mean, I’ve had people that I love dearly even say those kind of statements to me, and I think what I would say is I feel like as humans we always are looking for ways to make sense of things and to find, “How do you, Meg — now that you’re autistic, how do you fit into what I perceive, you know, to be autism?”

Rebecca Ching: Mm.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: And so, novelty, newness of stuff is really hard. So then we try to find our own comfort and then I think sometimes they’re trying to find their comfort of like, “Well, this is what I have known of autism,” or “This is what I’ve known of any topic, and now you’re kind of breaking that mold, that belief, that internal belief that I’ve had?”

24:25

You know, what is unknown can be a little bit alarming or make you feel uneasy, and so, I think there is this sense of — there’s just a lot of misconceived notions when it comes to being autistic, and I always like to tell people I am so aware that I have a full-time job, I’m a wife, I have kids, I can drive, I don’t need as frequent high supports as the next autistic individual, possibly. But it doesn’t take away that I am more likely experiencing the world like the autistic child that does need daily high supports in their life, and it’s okay that that exists. It doesn’t have to be an all-or-nothing type of a thing, and stepping into that space with me or with that child means so much. And it’s like why would you not want to get to know why they are an autistic individual so that you can love them better and so that you can do the support that they need to feel included and like it’s okay to maybe be different, you know? Difference is a good thing, and we don’t want to try to form everyone into being the same. So also, we don’t want to say, “Oh, we’re all a little bit autistic,” because that’s kind of just going back to the message of the sameness again, and it’s like that’s not unique and doesn’t make our world awesome and beautiful like if we are all kind of these clones of each other. So yeah. Yeah.

26:02

Rebecca Ching: Definitely in my own journey times where I’m like, “Ugh,” I want to stop behavior or correct or manage something is so much about my own comfort, my own vulnerability of how I’m gonna be perceived as a parent, just as a human, whatever I’m trying to control or feed people around me, and that feeling of out-of-control is uncomfortable depending on the identities you hold because some of us are able to manage that, and all of a sudden to really want to dive into inclusion, it involves inconvenience. It’s not efficient. It involves looking within and seeing some things in ourselves that I’m like, “Dangit! That snuck up on me,” you know?

I think that contributes to why so many people that I work with and talk with over the years still see owning their autism identity or their kids, their loved one, their coworker as a label that will bring exclusion and harm. They avoid it. They’re like, “Oh, my gosh. I don’t want them to have that because I don’t want them to be othered.” You’re like, “Duh! This would be amazing!”

I saw something you wrote where you write and you speak about internalizing this for a period too, and you wrote, “The anxiety that you’ve experienced your whole life embedded in your sense of feeling different,” and how, for a while, that felt wrong to you.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: That’s an interesting choice of words with “wrong.” So I’m curious what wrong means to you and tell me about a time when you felt different and that feeling different was wrong.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: So part of my autistic profile, too, is a high need for kind of like right and wrong, and there’s a rule to everything, and then as a female I am really good at picking up on any rules, and I will follow those rules, and I will knock those rules out of the park, as they say. I didn’t even know I was gonna mention this on here, but I think that kind of actually led me — I’m remarried but I think that actually led me to choosing even a partner who has a lot of great characteristics and who I trusted a lot and provided that sense of right and wrong security in my life.

28:13

And so, I think that I found safety and comfort in that, and so, he was the ideal because he was so logical and on top of things, and that was very attractive to me because I’m over here feeling, feeling, feeling, feeling, feeling and not trusting myself because I didn’t understand myself. And so, then that’s a big part of my life. That was, like, ten years of my life, but in that marriage it felt wrong, in a way, to be who I was because of my autistic characteristics not being understood, not taking the time to be understood, and so much grace in a way, though, too for him because if I didn’t know and he doesn’t know and were trying to work this out, it’s not a clear-cut path, but I do remember thinking, “Oh, he’s better than me because he’s so stable and follows the rules.” And not that I was unstable, necessarily, in bigger, larger ways in my life but just unstable in the sense of I’m a feeler. I take on people’s emotions. Someone tells me their mom passed away, that I just met, I will look at them and be like, “What do they need,” you know, and I’ll take it on for a long time, versus he was better at compartmentalizing and just kind of going with the flow of things, and for me it stopped me in my tracks, and I had to deal with those things, and that felt wrong because I felt like I was kind of a challenge to him, like I wasn’t just this kind of quiet, go-with-the-flow human. And so, that definitely made me feel like he was a better — I felt like, for years, that he was a better human.

30:02

Rebecca Ching: Wow, so it’s almost this, like, stealth belief and ranking hierarchy that you’d internalized a little bit because of — and how that manifested with your kind of strong sense of right and wrong and moved to good and bad. Okay, interesting.

So what shifted your sense of feeling “wrong” because you felt different towards more a sense of self-acceptance?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: It is. It’s the journey that led me to discovering my autistic identity.

Rebecca Ching: Wow. 

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: You know, you find people that are like you too and that you have a lot of commonalities with, and you gain this information about yourself that you never had before and you’re like, “Oh, Meg is not wrong. It’s not wrong to get stuck in your emotions. It’s not wrong to stim. It’s not wrong to be “quirky,” because I think we all tend to, as humans, think of autism and neurodivergence as quirky humans. But there’s nothing wrong with being a quirky human, and there’s also a lot of us, right? There’s a lot of us out there, so we’re not that abnormal.

And realizing that, too, like, “I am different,” but I also have these beautiful friends in my life that also experience the world in these ways and teach you you’re not alone in that, and then you’re like, “Oh, well, I think they are an awesome human being. I think the autistic kids that I work with and I’m friends with now are amazing humans.” So if I already have that belief and then I’m attached to part of my identity being like, “You’re an autistic female,” it’s like you already have those positive correlations and being accepted by your own community in that realm is empowering for sure.

Rebecca Ching: I’m curious, though, what experiences still challenge your sense of worthiness today?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: I think, like anything, there are moments in my life where past internal beliefs pop up still or I am a pretty social human being.

32:07

However, I will tell you I leave every single social group activity feeling alone because I need the social one on one, because if I feel like I didn’t get to learn anything about you or we didn’t get into anything deep, then I’m like, “What was that,” in a way, and I feel like I don’t really know — like, “What do I do with my body in this room? What do I ask? Do I ask these questions here?” You know, there’s just a lot that is happening in my brain.

And I’ll watch other females that are my friends too, they’re neurotypical or neurodivergent, and when I’m in a social setting, especially with even a bunch of people that I genuinely care about and love, it can be just a lot in the room because you have a lot of emotions going on, especially if I am not feeling — say it’s like we’re gonna all go out one night, and I’m just not feeling the same emotion as them, it can be tricky on how to navigate that space because it’s so funny because I used to be able to almost better mask and join in, and now it’s like that’s not me.

Rebecca Ching: Mm, you’ve ruined that tool, yeah.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: That tool doesn’t work! It’s a good thing, but it’s a challenging thing.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah, it is actually challenging because it has — you know, some things with masking actually you get reinforced, right? People are like — you’re joining in with them, and the masking is working or whatnot, and so, you’re at least feeling some sort of a peace in a superficial way. And then I think, yeah, what has happened is I can’t, in a way, mask as well anymore because I know so much about who I am. I’m not trying to be judgmental because I also think humans should be allowed to just go out and go have fun. That’s great! But sometimes what can happen is in my head I’ll be like — you know, I’ll carry on the emotions from the day of like, “I found out about this is happening across the ocean,” or “I found out that this is happening with my friend,” and I cannot compartmentalize as much. And so, I’ll be a little bit sad because I’ll be like, “Doesn’t anyone care about these other things other than fun?” And then it hits me of, like, “Meg, the human experience. It’s also really great to let loose and to have fun” because you can be debilitated if you’re going to just live in a space where you’re feeling so heavy.

34:33

Rebecca Ching: That’s such a good point because, you know, I do talk with a lot of people about empathy boundaries. It doesn’t mean shutting down that ability to feel with and believe people about all of the hard and horrible things going on in the world, but it’s also not sustainable if we don’t have a sense of where we end and others begin, and we can have a little bit of space in between those experiences. It’s like an interesting kind of matrix how it will tap into the sense of justice and what’s right and wrong.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: It’s its own internal system. And then that can increase the feelings of aloneness when you’re like, “I’m here and you’re over here? I want to talk about this, and you want to go,” and so, it’s not just about the social issues. It’s about the connection, and it’s hard to find folks that can, “Oh, don’t be so intense,” right? “Oh, you’re so serious,” you know, or all of the things, right?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes. Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate that, and I suspect a lot of people are going to resonate and appreciate hearing your perspective.

I am really excited to talk about the work that you’re doing and dig into a little bit of what you’re doing over at KultureCity. I’d love for you to share with me what it means for an organization or a space to be sensory inclusive.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes! I love it. I love KultureCity. KultureCity, like, fits who I am so well. It’s a gift literally every day. I love KultureCity so much. So KultureCity —

Rebecca Ching: Before you go to say more about that —

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

36:06

Rebecca Ching: — when you say it’s a gift because, I mean, what an incredible thing to say about where you work. So say more about why it’s such a gift to you.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Definitely. So the reason I love it so much is they know who I am. They know my neurodivergence. They know a lot about my specific ways in which I am an autistic female. And they embrace those, and they let me have my weaknesses without shaming me whatsoever or making me feel like, “You need to step it up,” because there are gonna be other people from our team that can fill in. And then I know what I’m really good at, and they do too, and so, then we just work so well together.

So that freedom to not be good at everything and then to tap into your strengths, it is the best! It is the best.

Rebecca Ching: It sounds like it’s a model for a lot of other businesses and organizations that really need to be — we need to talk more about because we spend so much time at work, wouldn’t it be great? Not everyone has to love it.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Right. Right.

Rebecca Ching: But at least to feel like they’re okay as they are and they can lean into what they’re doing and not feel bad if they say, “I don’t know,” or “I’m struggling.”

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes!

Rebecca Ching: Imagine that. Imagine that, how radical that is. [Laughs]

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Imagine! It’s so great! Yes.

Rebecca Ching: So one of the things you all do is you help organizations and spaces be sensory inclusive, and I’d love for you to talk in as much detail as possible about what that looks like and what that means. 

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: To become sensory inclusive with KultureCity, it’s dependent on what type of venue or entity you are. So we work with schools, school districts, first responders, museums, zoos, airports, cruise lines, concerts, bands, and all of the major sports like NBA, NFL, MLS and then wrestling like AEW.

38:01

We believe massively that you can have the tools, like you can have the sensory rooms, the noise-canceling headphones, the fidgets, all these tools available, and yes, that is a beautiful act of welcoming the one-in-four that have a sensory-processing impairment or difference. But what takes it further is that knowledge and education.

So we have specific training for each of these venues and entities that goes over what are the possible sensory experiences your patrons or students or whoever might experience in that specific setting. How do they manifest? And then how do we come alongside you and help you co-regulate to get back to your best self so that you can enjoy whatever the event is or at least participate comfortably in whatever the event is. Or (which I love this part) it’s like we’re calling — like I worked with so many families that go to the same specific locations year after year after year after year and then will say, “Oh, we can’t go there. One time we went there, and Johnny was getting overwhelmed by a baby crying in there,” and so, that eliminates that experience and then they don’t step back in, and I get it because people look at you and there’s a lot of —

Rebecca Ching: There’s some trauma.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: There’s some trauma if it impacts the whole family or group, yeah.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: And that’s a key thing too. It’s not just the person that has the sensory processing impairment or difference. It’s their friends, family, and what they get to experience too. So the training that happens paired with the tools available, paired with we also provide signage, and I tell people it’s not at all to be like, “Look at KultureCity!” If you met all of us, you would see, like, “Oh, these guys are just a bunch of passionate people that want to make the world more inclusive,” because 90% of us in our KultureCity family are neurodivergent as well. But the signage I always say means so much because even if a family doesn’t access any of the tools ever or —

40:17

Rebecca Ching: It says, “You’re welcome here.” I know how I feel.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: It does! Yes!

Rebecca Ching: It says, “We’re thinking about you. You matter,” and it’s just like a cold glass of water on a hot day. It’s like, okay, there’s some thought here. There’s the guard that goes down a little bit, I know for me as a parent.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes!

Rebecca Ching: Sorry I just jumped in there because I’m like, “Yes, I feel that!”

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: No, I love it. Take it away! It sounds good! [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: [Laughs]

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: No, you hit it. It grants the person and their family permission to be their neurodivergent self too, and I think that that is a huge gift of hospitality you can give to these families —

Rebecca Ching: Totally.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: — and to these kids and adults that have these sensory processing — they’re invisible disabilities and it’s kind of like, “We see you even though we don’t necessarily sometimes see everything about your disability, but we believe you as well,” and I think that that is another empowering thing for these families and individuals to know, “I can safely explore new things,” you know? “I can go experience the things that the rest of the world gets to experience, and they took time to curate this space for me.” It’s like when you host someone for a dinner at your house, you want to know their allergies, do they have food preferences, do they want a glass of wine right when they walk through the door or do they want candles lit. I don’t know. There are just different things that we think about, and this is just another way to extend that type of warm hospitality.

Rebecca Ching: And think about that, how we create our homes, our places of work, our schools.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: Could you share a little bit about what you did with Coldplay and your work with Coldplay when they were on tour?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: Because that’s some really cool stuff how they were all in too. It was a whole sensory experience for them.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes!

Rebecca Ching: Yeah.

42:10

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: I love our partnership with Coldplay. So I personally have never gotten to go on the tour with them, but my coworker, her name is Ericka. She is amazing, and she has been touring with them with a bunch of volunteers from all over the world, all over the world for the last two or three years, and they’re about to start their next leg in I think the UK this upcoming summer in June.

So Coldplay keeps going, and what they do is just beautiful. They always bring the KultureCity sensory bags with them. They lug all of our stuff in with their own touring stuff, and the people that we work with behind the scenes are so lovely and so onboard and the impact that it has had — Coldplay is a very sensory experience. You know, the lights, the sounds, it’s a whole mood, and it’s kind of the perfect pairing, right? You have such a sensory experience, heavily-driven concert experience, and then for those who wear — especially like myself at concerts. I love concerts. I thrive in a concert setting. Oh, my gosh. It’s my happy place, but then again what’s funny is I can get so happy and so excited that then at the end or toward the end I’m like [Gasp].

Rebecca Ching: Like the wall. [Laughs]

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes!

Rebecca Ching: The sponge is full. The sensory sponge is full! [Laughs]

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes! And then what I tell people too about the Coldplay experience is the people that come up and share their stories, it’s the coolest thing that you’re gifting people. They will come up and you’ll say, “Oh, we’re KultureCity! We’re partnered with Coldplay to make it sensory inclusive,” and you’ll hear people just be like, “What! Where was this years ago,” or “I would have incited my nephew! He loves Coldplay but he has ADHD and is autistic and this would be a lot, but now that I know…” People deserve these amazing core memories, and Coldplay has been such a champion of that with us.

44:20

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[Inspirational Music]

46:07

Rebecca Ching: There are a lot of things that KultureCity does that, I mean, is helping folks and organizations become sensory inclusive but tell me a little bit more about the work they do and what you specifically do in that organization.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: As a nonprofit, I’ve heard this is common, but you do, you end up wearing “a lot of hats.” So I laugh whenever I see, like, “Meg Raby,” or “Meg Raby Klinghoffer,” and it might say “Sensory Trainer,” or “Partner Specialist.” We like to practice hospitality behind the scenes with KultureCity.

So the other day, my boss, he’s the cofounder, Dr. Julian Maha, he’s texting me like, “Meg, I need you to order pizza for the Tacoma Dome staff because they just sent us this story, and they’ve just been such amazing partners of ours.” And I’m like, “Okay!” So then I’m spending time trying to figure out where do I get decent pizza in Tacoma, Washington, and how do I get it there on time, which is not my strength of that type of executive function. That’s not my strength. But hospitality is a big strength of mine, so having that drive gets it done for me. [Laughs] But up in front of, “Go plan it out. Find out how many pizzas you need,” my eyes are like, “Okay!” [Laughs]

It’s just so neat to see even if you are not strong in your executive function skills in figuring out A, B, and C, they still believe you enough to try it, to risk in that way because they know that heart, again, behind it, that passion and that zoomed-in focus on the mission of creating inclusive spaces and maintaining that energy there. We’re called KultureCity because we want a change in the culture, so it’s a change in how you spell KultureCity because what we see is, yes, we do these trainings, yes, we do these tools. But then there’s this whole shift of your coworker, you’re like, “Oh.” He’s no longer this person that you don’t understand and you’re like, “Okay, I don’t want –,” you know, maybe like, “He’s frustrating me because he does things a little bit differently,” or, “She doesn’t make eye contact with me, and she seems all over the place,” maybe.

48:21

Stuff like that, it builds that compassion. And so, yeah, it grants you that permission to not be perfect but to take that whole core, in a way, inside of you, of who you are and to at least try. And I think that knowing you’re allowed to try and for it to not maybe turn out flawlessly is still very much a gift to have a community, a job like that, and then to extend that out to all the others we get to interact and work with.

Rebecca Ching: What are some of the most fulfilling things about your job and the aspects of your work right now?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: I am very grateful to be out of direct therapy. I miss my kids, and I miss the adults that I worked with so regularly, but I got to a space where I was like, “Okay, we have been working on the same goals, and we love each other, and we have fun. Every time we’re together, we have a blast. But no kid and no adult should have to be in a therapy year after year, week after week, twice a week, you know, for a long, long, long, long time, and what if I can make a bigger impact by stepping back and taking that risk,” when KultureCity offered me the full-time job and stepping into a new way of helping the same population.

Rebecca Ching: You know, you bring up a really interesting point too, and I relate to this too, of working with folks who they can do so much healing, so much growth, but then they keep going back to a world — you didn’t say this directly but there is where my brain went.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: They keep going back to the world where they still kind of need to have some of that support, and now you get to go work with the larger system to create the spaces for your former patients to go be so they don’t need as much support because they can just be, right? We’re helping create a little bit more of a larger change in the kulture. Kulture with a K.

50:22

I always felt that was hard with some of my clients early in my clinical career, right? They’d do so much healing from trauma and different things, but they’d have to go back to their families or go back to the spaces that were activating exactly what brought them to me. And so, they can develop some skills and some tools so they can heal and figure out how to not get so sucked up into things, but it’s also hard. So I love the shift from the micro to the macro is how I see it a little bit for you too.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes!

Rebecca Ching: Kind of scaling a little bit what you’re doing. Are there any aspects of your work that you find challenging?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Again, because I’m so believed in and who I am is celebrated at my job, yes, there are challenges in a sense of if you saw my workday it can be like, “Order pizza. Chat with a school district about sensory inclusion. Okay, now drive up to this library down the street because they need some help, which is great. Okay, now tomorrow you’re flying out to do this activity,” and it’s all at the same time, and normally, oh, my gosh, you gave me this job and I didn’t feel the sense of joy and the sense of it’s okay to mess up, I would be paralyzed [Laughs] by this. But because, again, there’s that energy, it’s like, “I can handle it,” and yeah, some days you’re like, “Oh, boy. This is a lot!” But you always are excited about it because you believe so much in what you’re doing and in the mission of inclusion. And then you actually made me think about something that I’d not thought about.

52:02

Something that’s really cool that just popped in my head is, yes, also in speech and language pathology — you know this in therapy — it’s often the autistic individuals, the neurodivergent individuals you’re working with trying to learn these new skills, and it’s all the onus is on them. And I think KultureCity, without even saying anything to all these businesses, these first responders, these musicians and sports teams are kind of doing their part, you know what I mean? They’re meeting you in the middle at least to say, “Okay, you are gonna go to therapy? I’m gonna do my therapy and learn about you, and then we’re gonna come together and –.”

Rebecca Ching: Hello. Hello!

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes!

Rebecca Ching: It’s like so much of the burden is like, “Hey, you need to go and change so you can fit the world that I don’t want to change. I want it to stay the same.” No. That’s, like, not working. It’s so toxic. So I love that. I love that you see that.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: And I love that that is so almost implicit. It’s so in the DNA of your organization, right? But I think it’s important to make it explicit for folks that are neurotypical. You want to be welcoming? Let’s start looking, doing the YOU-turn and looking in the mirror and looking in your organization and having hard conversations, not just #hardconversation, right?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: Let’s do it! [Laughs]

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: That’s probably why when a venue or entity that we are in conversation with, if it doesn’t get quite there, you know, if they’re at the last second like, “Oh, we’re not gonna do this,” I think that’s why it’s also sometimes so painful because you’re like, “But you’re putting it all back on them!” and “You’re putting it all back on these families and individuals, and that’s not fair!” [Laughs]

Rebecca Ching: It’s not, and it’s easier, and we don’t have the budgets. We don’t have the time because so many of the systems and the structures and how we do school and do business make it hard for folks to do the right thing, right?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

54:09

Rebecca Ching: And everyone is trying to do their best in an overbooked, grinding culture, but to really create second-order change, like doing some things like Coldplay is doing — I’m not just saying it because it’s Coldplay, but knowing the backend of doing a world tour, to make that part of their DNA takes a big commitment.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Right.

Rebecca Ching: And usually it has to start from the top. Part of me is like, okay, those organizations that you get to third base, and they don’t bring it home, let’s have conversations. What can we do?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah!

Rebecca Ching: What’s the shift that we need to help coach these organizations to get there?

But I want to move to something before we wrap up our conversation. You know, we’re recording this during the month of April, and April is typically known as either Autism Awareness Month. It’s moved to Acceptance Month. And I want to read a quote that you wrote that just hit me between the eyes. You said:

“Awareness Month, sometimes called Autism Acceptance Month, doesn’t work for me. I was about to say April should be called Autism Welcomed and Wanted Month until a dear autistic friend of mine who works in the space pointed out that even with the name change it’s still neurotypical-centric. Each name, as it were, highlights that autistics exist, begs for further explanation of autism, and –,” my least favorite call-to-action you note, “– pushes for accepting autistics. Since when does another person decide whether or not acceptance is even on the table? We weren’t even asking for permission.”

That was like a little amen sermon right there for me because I realized I kind of call BS on awareness and even acceptance. They’re helpful but it’s inclusion or not.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: We need to start with awareness and acceptance to get to inclusion. It’s a part of inclusion but if we stop below inclusion, it’s almost then we’re tokenizing, teasing, it’s performative to me, even with well-intentioned — and I was a part of that.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Oh, yeah.

Rebecca Ching: I was, oh, my gosh, wear the blue, light the blue — I went through my stages of — and now I know, and I cringe. And this isn’t a shaming thing like you’re not being a good enough ally. It’s just understanding the depths of what it really means to be inclusive, and that’s inconvenient.

I’d love for you to share more from your lived experience working with KultureCity. The harm often done by these well-intended awareness and acceptance approaches to supporting autistic individuals.

56:37

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah. I like this topic, and it’s interesting. Though I wrote for Scary Mommy, and when I write for Scary Mommy, I envision this feisty little Meg on my shoulder [Laughs] because, you know, you get to have more of a tone, and it’s super fun. I love getting to work with them. They’ve been amazing partners in that. But before I even answer kind of all the things that you were chatting about, I think something that I do want to take a step back and say is in this last year I’ve grown in a different way of advocacy. I’ve never been a person that publicly shames anyone, right? I feel like that’s very sad. I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to call out, necessarily, a specific organization or whatnot. So, yes, while I hear — again, even when you were reading the awareness and acceptance isn’t working for me, in my ideal world, no, it’s not. I’ve landed in this space where I’m like I know that a lot of the people that are doing the awareness and acceptance stuff, they’re trying.

Rebecca Ching: Totally!

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: They really are, and yes, sometimes I can cringe too where I’m like, “Oh, boy! That’s not necessarily maybe the route or the words I would use,” because I think it actually could possibly cause harm. I think eliminating those people from the conversation and from the table is way more detrimental to, then, our movement to inclusion. So I want to say that.

Rebecca Ching: Agreed.

58:10

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: But something I always want people to think about is if you look at our calendar, we also have Father’s Day, Mother’s Day, Grandparent’s Day, stuff like that. So I think it would be so cool if we just call it Autism Month, you know, or Autistic Month, Autistics Month versus it being — because you can be aware someone exists, but that’s not gonna change anything in your life necessarily. It’s like I love SugarBee Apples, but I wouldn’t know I loved that SugarBee Apple if I didn’t take a bite and get to know the flavors of SugarBee, but I’m aware that apple exists. And then acceptance, it’s that whole like, oh, my gosh. It’s such a big word. Do I accept myself as an autistic female? That is way more important than anything because, I mean, again, connect that to my physical health and the freedom that I feel now. I promise you I wouldn’t be able to even probably do the work with KultureCity if I had not landed on a place of acceptance for myself.

And then we don’t need the acceptance of another human. We just need the respect, the accommodations, and if you get to know us, we want a natural friendship or a natural relationship that will come or will not come from that because also we don’t want to force inauthentic friendships and relationships either. I think that hits on we want to be seen as human, just a different neurology, a different way of experiencing the world, but we are ultimately human. And this makes me want to say something again about non-speakers.

I think there’s so much in this world, like when we see a non-speaker, their stories are the ones that need to be so amplified right now because they’re going their life with all these thoughts and dreams and stories in their head, and all of us are speaking around them, and often a lot of us are thinking, “Oh, their cognition is probably less than because they don’t use the speech mechanism, the voice.”

1:00:18

When they want to participate — and honestly, I already know some non-speakers that are even way more smart than me and have way more things to “say,” they just do it in a different way. 

Rebecca Ching: Yeah.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: That’s just something that I’m also very passionate about. 

Rebecca Ching: I appreciate that, and I think the energy you picked up on me is just from my own lived experiences of this.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: And kind of calling BS to the impact, not to the people who are trying.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Correct.

Rebecca Ching: It just stirs up a lot in me.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes!

Rebecca Ching: I hope there’s some guilt and conviction going — because I feel that. Even some of the things that I’ve done in this space to do awareness and acceptance and colluded with things that are cringe but doesn’t mean I’m bad. I don’t hold shame to that. It’s just like it’s time to do better and not do something to make you feel good.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: It’s not about you. It’s how are we — what are we really — what’s the motivation, let’s get curious. I don’t mind having hard conversations. I have them hours a day every day of the week, and I’m an anomaly that way that I enjoy it immensely. And for those listening, if, like me, you’ve been a part of some of these things, especially around autism awareness or acceptance, it hasn’t helped, and I really — oh, Meg, I want you to share so people can hear. Sometimes that well-intention, what is some of the harm that comes from that, you know, with the desire to be supportive, and then what can we do instead is really what I’d love for you to share.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: I think when we are thinking about true inclusion, it starts totally with, again, kind of what I was talking about with the non-speakers, seeing the humanity in the autistic child, in the autistic adult, in the autistic elderly human being, pausing and stepping back and kind of seeing like, “Oh, when I say something of like, ‘Okay, we’re gonna celebrate Autism Awareness or Autism Acceptance,’ there’s something about those words and the way that it’s done that makes it seem like the autistic child is not at all autonomous and a human, or the autistic adult is not autonomous either.

1:02:29

Then what’s hard about that is you have all these humans, these autistic or neurodivergent humans living their life, trying “to just be themselves,” to be human. It’s not accepted because it’s not known.

So it needs to be Autistic Month where let’s spend time to learn as much as we can to truly see them but also to join them. Let this be a celebration month of, “I’m autistic! I experience the world in this specific way, and it’s not wrong, and we are making progress in this area.” So we want to be able to celebrate together as the autistic community, but we would love for other people also to be more intentional in learning about the neurodivergent brain because, again, it’s not like it’s one in a million. However, I will say even if it is one in a million, can we please learn about that person too?

Rebecca Ching: Right.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: But it’s not like it’s one in a million. It’s so many of us that are neurodivergent or autistic, and it’s time to take the time to learn about what that means and to just come alongside and to support and cheer and just be friends, be respectful and see our humanity and do this life with us. We’re not a project to be looked at. We want to just be embedded in the very fiber that makes humanity what it is and that’s where true inclusion comes from. Yeah.

Rebecca Ching: And I think you touched on something that if we’re really gonna do something, are we doing it with the folks that we’re wanting to support, or are we, the experts, trying — and then it creates this hierarchy. It creates this power dynamic. It’s very ableistic, and it comes into that, but it can be confusing because you’re like, “I’m trying to help!” But a lot of us wrestle with savior complexes.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Oh.

1:04:28

Rebecca Ching: And we like to feel good, and so, it’s just slowing the roll. And this can apply to any type of group that is not apart of dominant culture, and I think that’s why this is important to talk about because the intersectionality of this conversation is significant.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: It’s huge.

Rebecca Ching: Again, it’s a little bit more work. It takes a little bit more time. Who’s planning these events? And I think also checking do we see autism as something to be cured or something to understand?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes.

Rebecca Ching: I just wanted to name that because there are some different beliefs around that. You and I hold the belief that no one’s broken. It’s just a different neurotype, but there is this sense of how do we need to fix it. So I think some of that stuff comes from that. Like, “Let’s change this,” versus, “How do we need to change as a culture?” And I think that’s something that I think that we can do.

I’m curious, what are ways — day in and day out, how can we support real, true inclusion, not just performative action in our places of work, in particular?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yes, we all, or most of us, are on social media, so I have found social media to be a wealth of helpful information, and by information, a help with autistic experiences because there are so many amazing autistic teens and adults that are on there sharing their experience. So I think diversify your following. Who are you following? Be intentional. Spend, like, five minutes a day, two minutes a day just reading some of these posts, and then believe them because I think a lot of times people, you know, because of what we think we understand about autism will be like, “Oh, that can’t be autism,” you know? “That person is walking down the sidewalk to work.

1:06:22

Autism to me looks very specific, so I’m not gonna listen to them.” But I think, again, that empathy, I think we should naturally just believe one another. That is how we’re going to best support and be inclusive. If we don’t believe them, then why would we ever act?

Personally, I love reading. So finding books, especially Eric Garcia’s We’re Not Broken is amazing! [Laughs] It’s just so good!

Rebecca Ching: It is my go-to now. It is my go-to recommendation.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: It’s so good. Everyone in the world needs that book. And yeah, spend time every night reading it a little bit.

Rebecca Ching: And so, if KultureCity were to come into a place of work, what are some of the things that you would coach the leaders of that space that they can do that really would be more sensory-inclusive to their team?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: I mean, my brain immediately goes to — but I know not everyone will do this — but reach out to KultureCity. We love working with absolutely everyone. We have trainings for everyone, and we love what we do, and we will partner with you to make sure your space is on the trajectory of becoming truly inclusive. I think that’s key too, knowing that it is a process.

So at KultureCity we require ongoing education. So every year your staff has to take a training that’s updated based on best practices and then on our work that we do at our activations.

Rebecca Ching: Nice!

1:08:01

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Then I think another thing is kind of modeling the inclusion. So you have a big staff meeting coming up? Why not put some fidgets out and give a little speech ahead of time saying, “I know some of you, you know, don’t want to sit still at this very formal roundtable. That’s okay, go lean against the wall. Go pace if you need to.” It opens up your mind of, like, all brains do not think the same way and experience things in the same way, and it’s okay, and it’s interesting because once you take the training, you do start to see different coworkers and different people that you interact with that you’re like, “Oh, I bet they have a sensory difference that I just wasn’t aware of,” and then you get kind of excited to know that.

Yeah, again, that genuine love, too, for one another happens because it’s no longer like, “Ugh, I’m frustrated that they do something so different from me,” you know? Or “Why can’t they do A, B, and C,” but it’s kind of like this, “Oh, cool! This is what I learned! This is what I saw in the training video.” And so, it starts to take over that culture and whatnot. And then his story spreads to the top associates and whatnot, and everyone just gets all excited about these intentional steps they’re taking toward an inclusive environment.

And then the other thing that I tell people is you’re gonna connect with your employees and your staff so much more because I promise you. So it’s one in four that have a sensory-processing impairment. Someone right in their life, if not themselves, that means a lot to them, has this, has this profile and this experience of life that makes life very challenging to sometimes impossible. And so, they’re feeling seen on a whole different level, and you’re then cultivating that strong, beautiful sense of unity within the work environment, and that’s gonna increase their safety, their emotional safety, their happiness at their job. Even, yes, not all jobs are super fun and exciting. Sometimes they’re just very rote and you have to do the same thing day in and day out, but to know your place took this step to see that person that means a lot in your life or yourself, again, opens up, I would say, stronger satisfaction for the employees, which is gonna translate into a stronger work environment and then better outcomes for whatever your product or service is that you’re selling or whatnot. And so, it’s just like a win/win.

1:10:40

Rebecca Ching: I just want to say, too. I love that it’s an ongoing thing. It’s not like, “Hey, we’re certified,” and it’s a badge. It’s like an ongoing dynamic commitment that you take science, probably integrating it with lived experience, and update accordingly. That’s powerful, and that’s substantive. I’m like, oh, my gosh, I can’t wait to do this training. I’ve got to figure out how to do this training. I’m so excited to learn more!

Before we wrap up, how has your understanding of success changed since you were younger, and what does it mean to you today?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Success when I was younger was, again, definitely more black and white of, like, “You will have a Z3 BMW and –.” That was a specific car. I remember drawing that in, like, tenth grade. I was like, “I’m gonna have a Z3. I’m gonna have this type of a house and this type of a husband, and I’m gonna make this amount of money,” and that was success because I thought this is just what you do in life, you study really hard. I was a straight-A, amazing student in that realm, so I was like this only made sense. This is the next step. And now I’m like, “Nope, just toss it all out!”

Success — I don’t make a lot of money in my job, and I could care less, if I’m honest, because success for me is living my life for others out of knowing that I accept myself and that I’m okay and that I am loved.

1:12:04

Give me that day in and day out, and that is way more fulfilling, way more rich and makes my cells and my whole body so excited. So success to me is definitely getting to love on other people and to invite them into these spaces where it’s like, “We’re so happy you’re here,” and that’s what I get to do, and it’s the best.

Rebecca Ching: And I have a final round of quickfire questions I do ask my guests, too.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah!

Rebecca Ching: So what are you reading right now, Meg?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yung Pueblo. Day in and day out. Do you know him?

Rebecca Ching: Not personally, but I know his work, yes.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Ha! Oh good. I have all of his books next to my bed that I like to finish each day or start each day with.

Rebecca Ching: Mm.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: I would love to get to chat with him one day. I missed him by a second. I went to South by Southwest recently, and he spoke as the keynote speaker, and KultureCity got to speak, and then we literally passed each other in a halfway, and I turned and I’m like, “Oh! [Laughs] That’s Yung Pueblo!” 

Rebecca Ching: What song are you playing on repeat?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: There are probably two. I love Post Malone. [Laughs] So I love the song “Hollywood is Bleeding.” Everyone look it up. It’s got such a great rhythm, and it gives me all the feels. I love it. And then Lauren Daigle, I’m a big Lauren Daigle fan, and she has a song called “Rescue,” on it.

Rebecca Ching: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: It just — I put my hands out, and I’m just like, “Oh, give me the sensation of love, and remind me I’m not alone again.” I love that song too.

Rebecca Ching: What is the best TV show or movie that you’ve seen recently?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Oh, my gosh. What is the one we just finished? Oh, it was so good too! I want people to know about it. What is it? Three-Body –.

Rebecca Ching: Oh, that was really good! The Three-Body Problem.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Oh, my gosh. So good! I need the next season. [Laughs] I just finished that, like, two days ago, and I was like, “I need to see more!” It’s so good.

1:14:07

Rebecca Ching: What is your favorite piece of eighties pop culture or pop culture from the generation that you really identify with?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: This is also just kind of random for me, but I grew up watching The Jackson Five documentary movie with my dad on repeat, and I think that’s interesting for me because it ties it back into I know Michael Jackson has some questionable actions that have happened —

Rebecca Ching: Very true.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: — in his life. But I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, did you watch The Jackson Five and see his story? You totally understand where he’s coming from.” I just remember watching that all the time and being so fascinated about that and realizing people are complex. We need to be way more gentle with one another.

Rebecca Ching: Yeah.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Yeah. 

Rebecca Ching: Fair enough. What is your mantra right now?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: My mantra for right now, I’m trying to think actually even today, is the importance of risk. Trying all of these different things out and risking not succeeding in them, that that’s okay because if we don’t risk, doors don’t open, things don’t happen. And then also with the risk, you end up finding out you are capable of so many things that you think you’re not, and I have seen that tenfold in my life in the last two years. So yes, I’m such a believer in taking risks because even if it totally bombs, at least you gathered that information and now you try a new risk, and you evaluate. “How did that go? What could I do differently?” It is amazing, though, when the risk turns into a positive outcome for sure.

Rebecca Ching: What’s an unpopular opinion that you hold?

1:16:00

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Okay, I’m gonna get a little bit religious on this. [Laughs] But that’s okay! So I position myself — I believe that I am a child of God. I love Jesus. However, I will also say I know I can’t 100% prove that. I can’t prove his existence. I can’t prove that he has risen from the dead and all of that, and I’m okay with being wrong. But if I’m gonna associate myself with anyone and follow anyone and I personally have seen in my life the ways that the ways of Jesus have pulled me to him, then I’m okay in taking that risk. My risk of giving it all and being like, “Jesus, you love me so well. I’m gonna take that and love others so well, and I’m not gonna get mad if anyone follows suit and becomes a ‘believer.’” I don’t have that burden on me of feeling like, “Oh,” like I have to get other people to believe.

Rebecca Ching: You’re now part of a cult.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: I’m like, “Believe what you want!” [Laughs] No!

Rebecca Ching: You have a personal faith. I made it a cult. [Laughs] Yes.

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: No, it’s a personal faith. But I know, especially in America, I know that Christianity is kind of — and I get it. Honestly, in my opinion, rightfully so. I can see why people have landed where they’ve landed when they look at the Christian realm, which is why I have a hard time saying I’m a Christian. I’m just like, “I love Jesus. I’m a Jesus follower.” [Laughs] But there’s no pressure on you adapting the exact same think as me or anything. We’re all figuring all of this out together.

Rebecca Ching: Who or what inspires you to be a better leader and human?

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: My kids, definitely. I have three kids. I have a stepson and then two biological kiddos. I want them to have the same — and I think that’s why when people age they end up saying they wish they could have their younger years back because I think as you do, you get older, you just step more into who you are, and you realize the things that were so heavy and hard when you’re younger, they do get less and less like that.

1:18:05

Yes, you get a whole nother slew of stressors and whatnot, but I want them to see the freedom that I have to be who I am and the joy that I have also working for KultureCity and to be like, you know, “I can do that and more than mommy,” you know “Mommy champions loving others and inclusion,” and I want that to be at the forefront of their mind. That’s a satisfying life is to invite others into your life and to join in others in their life and to love one another.

So I know it sounds kind of like a hippie answer, but I think that the answer for the majority of life is love.

Rebecca Ching: Nice. Thank you so much, Meg. This was a really personally meaningful conversation, and I know so many people are gonna learn a lot listening to your wisdom and all that you shared. So thank you so much for coming on the show and for your time today. I really appreciate it!

Meg Raby Klinghoffer: Thank you so much for having me!

Rebecca Ching: Before you go, I want to ensure you take away some important learnings from this Unburdened Leader conversation with Meg Raby Klinghoffer. Meg offers us an important reminder of the power of knowing who we are instead of who we should be and how that sets us up to have more capacity to imagine a better world while doing the work today to create that world. Meg also shed light on how we can support the work Meg and organizations like KultureCity are doing to make the spaces we live, learn, play, and entertain welcoming to those with invisible disabilities.

I’m curious, what’s your relationship with hope and imagination? Who are the people in your life who help you dare to hope and imagine a better today and future? What support do you need to confront cynicism, scarcity, and fear that disconnect you from your agency? Now more than ever, we need to confront the forces within and around us that disconnect us from our hope, our agency, and our imagination, which moves us all towards a different world, a better world, not just for the future but for today. And this is the ongoing work of an Unburdened Leader.

1:20:22

[Inspirational Music]

Thank you so much for joining this episode of The Unburdened Leader. You can find this episode, show notes, free Unburdened Leader resources, along with ways to sign up for my email list and ways to work with me at www.rebeccaching.com. And this episode was produced by the incredible team at Yellow House Media!

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